-
This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.
I did this tier-list thing.
It was really hard to decide between "Familial/Platonic" and "I am physically ill" on some of these.
I've softened on the idea of Senshi/Shitennou. I think it's still silly, but I don't outright hate it any more. I will admit La Reconquista shows how Zoisite/Mercury could work. The big one I have pivoted on is Jadeite/Mars. I can definitely get behind that pairing.
And yes, I put the canonical and central Mamoru/Usagi romance in the "I'll pretend not to see it" category. Those two really shouldn't be together.
That said, I really don't care all that much for ships, so this is more of a gut reaction.
It was really hard to decide between "Familial/Platonic" and "I am physically ill" on some of these.
I've softened on the idea of Senshi/Shitennou. I think it's still silly, but I don't outright hate it any more. I will admit La Reconquista shows how Zoisite/Mercury could work. The big one I have pivoted on is Jadeite/Mars. I can definitely get behind that pairing.
And yes, I put the canonical and central Mamoru/Usagi romance in the "I'll pretend not to see it" category. Those two really shouldn't be together.
That said, I really don't care all that much for ships, so this is more of a gut reaction.
No I don’t care if this is specifically using her aged up Black Lady form, she still obviously has the mind of a child. (Especially if this is the 90’s anime continuity we’re going by where the “actually over 900 stunted growth” thing doesn’t apply.) What makes pedophilia so unethical isn’t so much the appearance of a child but the fact that their brain is barely developed enough to even comprehend or understand sex and sexuality. The power imbalance between an adult and a prepubescent child is just through the roof!
Like I don’t get how objectively much less harmful ships such as Pluto/Endymion, Poly UsaReiMamo or MinaUsaMamo, Hotaru/Chibiusa, Fish-Eye/Mamoru, Kenji/Ikuko or Minako/Ami (not even the platonic tier for that one? Really? Care to explain why?) are somehow deserving to be in that lowest tier but not Demande/Black Lady?
Likes:
RebelOfDaNew
That's the weird thing. You would assume her to be mentally developed since she has over 900 years of experienced living. The crystal stymies your mental progress? Makes no sense to me. In that case, Cosmos should cheer the heck up, and Black Lady shouldn't exist.
Lol Tomoe and Kaori? If only......that dude discarded her like a wet rag. The real Tomoe and him could've had some real chemistry if she wasn't obsessed with hating his daughter. But maybe he wouldn't care.
Same for Ami and Viluy...if only. I actually found Ami quite stupid in their interaction. She basically called Viluy--who reached out to her despite suspecting her--cold-hearted because she taught a class as a student. I mean, Viluy was cold, but Ami had no idea about Viluy's other scheming. For the record, I agree with the idiot Viluy: "logic" in science over "emotions". That's why Ami never became a doctor.
And, tbqh, Viluy didn't even target Ami, after discovering her in the forbidden area, until Ami transformed. Before that, she was just trying to scare Ami into possibly transforming.
I personally never thought much about it until I first played Another Story. But seeing how they were portrayed there (rather naturally), I could understand the sentiment.
Lol Tomoe and Kaori? If only......that dude discarded her like a wet rag. The real Tomoe and him could've had some real chemistry if she wasn't obsessed with hating his daughter. But maybe he wouldn't care.
Same for Ami and Viluy...if only. I actually found Ami quite stupid in their interaction. She basically called Viluy--who reached out to her despite suspecting her--cold-hearted because she taught a class as a student. I mean, Viluy was cold, but Ami had no idea about Viluy's other scheming. For the record, I agree with the idiot Viluy: "logic" in science over "emotions". That's why Ami never became a doctor.
And, tbqh, Viluy didn't even target Ami, after discovering her in the forbidden area, until Ami transformed. Before that, she was just trying to scare Ami into possibly transforming.
I personally never thought much about it until I first played Another Story. But seeing how they were portrayed there (rather naturally), I could understand the sentiment.
Hey there. In a way, that's probably it. Here's what Takeuchi has said:
1. They're identical twins and Ptilol (younger) just hides away somewhere whenever Cyprine's not fighting......not like Ptilol mattered when Cyprine beat the inners/outers by herself and Super SM crushed them both with one corny attack
2. Ptilol derives form from Cyprine and is literally the same being as Cyprine
Obviously, this is manga stuff, but #2 can exist with #1. And #1 makes no sense for the anime when Eudial taught them all everything about witching including, presumably, how to fly. Tomoe, meanwhile, taught them about the heart-snatching.
In the manga, Cyprine's a lab creation which would make Ptilol a twin creation of Cyprine from Tomoe, with equal standing, confirmed by Kaori. But in the show, they're human, so they already existed and we don't see Ptilol until the end, long after Eudial puts them to work and Tomoe educates them. We see Cyprine somehow setting up booby traps like Eudial, somehow knowing the dimensional trick that Mimete's one daimon knew, knowing how to use the stars to store pure hearts (which only Eudial/Tellu did besides that)...and her disappearing even longer than Tellu and Viluy for whatever reason. We know what Tellu and Viluy worked on in their spare time, both using Eudial's PC--and we know Ptilol shared Cyprine's body...after Cyprine was taught by Eudial. Meaning, at some point, Cyprine did some kind of unnatural wizardry to create an intra version of herself, expecting to fight Serena's team. Or more precisely, she used magic to split herself in two and renamed her other half. Naturally, she fashioned another star-staff for Ptilol too.
Since she heeded Eudial so much and still wanted Eudial to retire, she reminds me of that smartass kid who picked up everything real fast and then thought they were too good to bother with anyone else in class, even the teacher. Official anime sources do say she's the strongest witch of the 5...but even with Ptilol, I still think the Flame Buster 2 would've lit her ass up. But that's probably a stan's dream. She not only made (and blew up w/ 1 attack) her own illusory dimension, she toyed with the inners while absorbing their powers, while still draining Mugen's students, while creating and hiding off a spacetime portal that led her directly to Tomoe/Mistress 9. When she died, the illusion crumbled and the warp in spacetime reappeared for the inners to reach Chibiusa. Also, she absorbed the tiara attack which I guess means the tiara regenerates in the show.
[All that's to say, unless she was screwing around, she was either working on Ptilol during her downtime or preparing the setup for her heart-snatching plan.]
But this thread was about shippings, so while we're on the subject:
Eudial--None. Which I prefer. Actually, she seemed pretty cold and professional to Tomoe and even hung up on him when he was BS'ing. Maybe something with a younger version of the witches, where she first recruits them.
Mimete--None. I mean, this dummy slapped away Eudial's computer when she got mad. And not only did she slap Minako's hand away and attack her for trying to be consoling (as if Mina didn't also fail the contest), but she then completely ignored Mina to kill the celebrity guy when Mina was choking right in front of her. You'd rather ship Naru and Luna. At least they didn't kill each other when they hung out. This psycho was knocking out random bystanders for fun anyway, so [BLEEP] her. She wishes she were actually famous like her manga self. How're you gonna get outdone by a 2-week-old monster seed?
Tellu--None...maybe Eudial, if anyone. She didn't seem too interested in Tomoe at first, mainly just crafting her hundreds of plants with Eudial's PC. She killed Mimete for being a general idiot, and probably for killing Eudial too. Someone left Eudial a "Tellun" on her desk. And she kept calling them the "Witches 5" even after putting "Witches 3" over Mimete's "Witches 4". And she left the fight right after killing Mimete. And before killing Mimete, she lectured her on taking Eudial's invention (not to mention that recording device to spy on her/Tomoe), let alone not grasping it. She also didn't insult Eudial unlike the others. For the record, Tellu, for how smart she was, was kinda stupid for sending her "it'll eat your pure heart and then explode" plant after people who could've been--and were--talisman-holders.
Viluy--None. Likewise didn't seem to be interested in Tomoe, only the mission, and straight-up told Kaori to knock the flirting off (and shoved her). She maybe could've had a friendship with Ami if Ami'd been more openminded, but that's mainly in the dub.
Cyprine/Ptilol--Unlike the others, it appears Cyprine/Ptilol actually wants Tomoe's personal approval. By the time she steps up, she's already #2 because everyone else is gone. If nothing else, she was buttering up Tomoe with made-up rankings and dissing Kaori before Kaori was even there. Then she smirked at Kaori's stalker self when she noticed Kaori on the ceiling. I do like that she didn't put hands on Kaori or anyone else on her team......and still, the extra cattiness with Tomoe, plus the way she speaks (calling Eudial "oban"?) makes it pretty obvious she's the youngest one. Eudial herself sounds like the oldest, let alone anything else.
--Forgot to mention you do see Cyprine with red hair at one point. Tomoe/Kaori don't seem to care. Anime screw-up or subtle foreshadowing?
"Curse you, Cyprine.... You'll see, Cyprine...."
Gotta love how Kaori talks about Viluy and Cyprine like she actually knows them.
She never spoke to Cyprine at all and only "spoke" to Viluy because Viluy got on her about latching on to Tomoe. Honestly, pairing Kaori with anyone else seems odd.
1. They're identical twins and Ptilol (younger) just hides away somewhere whenever Cyprine's not fighting......not like Ptilol mattered when Cyprine beat the inners/outers by herself and Super SM crushed them both with one corny attack
2. Ptilol derives form from Cyprine and is literally the same being as Cyprine
Obviously, this is manga stuff, but #2 can exist with #1. And #1 makes no sense for the anime when Eudial taught them all everything about witching including, presumably, how to fly. Tomoe, meanwhile, taught them about the heart-snatching.
In the manga, Cyprine's a lab creation which would make Ptilol a twin creation of Cyprine from Tomoe, with equal standing, confirmed by Kaori. But in the show, they're human, so they already existed and we don't see Ptilol until the end, long after Eudial puts them to work and Tomoe educates them. We see Cyprine somehow setting up booby traps like Eudial, somehow knowing the dimensional trick that Mimete's one daimon knew, knowing how to use the stars to store pure hearts (which only Eudial/Tellu did besides that)...and her disappearing even longer than Tellu and Viluy for whatever reason. We know what Tellu and Viluy worked on in their spare time, both using Eudial's PC--and we know Ptilol shared Cyprine's body...after Cyprine was taught by Eudial. Meaning, at some point, Cyprine did some kind of unnatural wizardry to create an intra version of herself, expecting to fight Serena's team. Or more precisely, she used magic to split herself in two and renamed her other half. Naturally, she fashioned another star-staff for Ptilol too.
Since she heeded Eudial so much and still wanted Eudial to retire, she reminds me of that smartass kid who picked up everything real fast and then thought they were too good to bother with anyone else in class, even the teacher. Official anime sources do say she's the strongest witch of the 5...but even with Ptilol, I still think the Flame Buster 2 would've lit her ass up. But that's probably a stan's dream. She not only made (and blew up w/ 1 attack) her own illusory dimension, she toyed with the inners while absorbing their powers, while still draining Mugen's students, while creating and hiding off a spacetime portal that led her directly to Tomoe/Mistress 9. When she died, the illusion crumbled and the warp in spacetime reappeared for the inners to reach Chibiusa. Also, she absorbed the tiara attack which I guess means the tiara regenerates in the show.
[All that's to say, unless she was screwing around, she was either working on Ptilol during her downtime or preparing the setup for her heart-snatching plan.]
But this thread was about shippings, so while we're on the subject:
Eudial--None. Which I prefer. Actually, she seemed pretty cold and professional to Tomoe and even hung up on him when he was BS'ing. Maybe something with a younger version of the witches, where she first recruits them.
Mimete--None. I mean, this dummy slapped away Eudial's computer when she got mad. And not only did she slap Minako's hand away and attack her for trying to be consoling (as if Mina didn't also fail the contest), but she then completely ignored Mina to kill the celebrity guy when Mina was choking right in front of her. You'd rather ship Naru and Luna. At least they didn't kill each other when they hung out. This psycho was knocking out random bystanders for fun anyway, so [BLEEP] her. She wishes she were actually famous like her manga self. How're you gonna get outdone by a 2-week-old monster seed?
Tellu--None...maybe Eudial, if anyone. She didn't seem too interested in Tomoe at first, mainly just crafting her hundreds of plants with Eudial's PC. She killed Mimete for being a general idiot, and probably for killing Eudial too. Someone left Eudial a "Tellun" on her desk. And she kept calling them the "Witches 5" even after putting "Witches 3" over Mimete's "Witches 4". And she left the fight right after killing Mimete. And before killing Mimete, she lectured her on taking Eudial's invention (not to mention that recording device to spy on her/Tomoe), let alone not grasping it. She also didn't insult Eudial unlike the others. For the record, Tellu, for how smart she was, was kinda stupid for sending her "it'll eat your pure heart and then explode" plant after people who could've been--and were--talisman-holders.
Viluy--None. Likewise didn't seem to be interested in Tomoe, only the mission, and straight-up told Kaori to knock the flirting off (and shoved her). She maybe could've had a friendship with Ami if Ami'd been more openminded, but that's mainly in the dub.
Cyprine/Ptilol--Unlike the others, it appears Cyprine/Ptilol actually wants Tomoe's personal approval. By the time she steps up, she's already #2 because everyone else is gone. If nothing else, she was buttering up Tomoe with made-up rankings and dissing Kaori before Kaori was even there. Then she smirked at Kaori's stalker self when she noticed Kaori on the ceiling. I do like that she didn't put hands on Kaori or anyone else on her team......and still, the extra cattiness with Tomoe, plus the way she speaks (calling Eudial "oban"?) makes it pretty obvious she's the youngest one. Eudial herself sounds like the oldest, let alone anything else.
--Forgot to mention you do see Cyprine with red hair at one point. Tomoe/Kaori don't seem to care. Anime screw-up or subtle foreshadowing?
"Curse you, Cyprine.... You'll see, Cyprine...."
Gotta love how Kaori talks about Viluy and Cyprine like she actually knows them.
She never spoke to Cyprine at all and only "spoke" to Viluy because Viluy got on her about latching on to Tomoe. Honestly, pairing Kaori with anyone else seems odd.
Last edited:
I didn't put it in the last tier for one reason and one reason only, as personally as I don't like it, there is enough of lingering justification in the narrative I could see where it could develop.
What better way to make Demande really irredeemable, beyond the attempted SA on Usagi, than to make him shallow enough to go after her replacement just because he could. The same is true of Black Lady in that she's been brainwashed so badly that she's willing to literally couple with the enemy. It would show how far both have fallen, or likely were manipulated by Wiseman. They're villains who are doing villainous things.
In this specific case, my distaste is overruled by the sliver of interesting storyline potential. It's still something I don't support, but shippers, gonna ship and at least it's NOT Black Lady/Mamoru.
As far as Mamoru and Chibi-Usa goes, I wish he weren't Chibi-Usa's father. That's how much I dislike the guy and the whole UsaMamo ship. Seriously, I wish she were either Seijuurou or Demande's kid.
My objection to Pluto in a ship is because of the old anime, I read her as acearo. I know she's not in most of the other incarnations, but I really liked the idea of a character who did not desire romance, intimacy, or intercourse.
I'm biased against polyamory, but to stay on topic, there's a bigger problem here - all the of the characters in these not only clearly desire monogamy but are far too possessive and stubborn to make any healthy poly relationship work. The only exception might be Minako, but again, she needs to find a partner who would be suitable.
Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are just kids and more importantly, it is stressed that both girls have trouble making friends. Even though it's "fun" to ship them because of both their contrasts and their "adult bodied" evil selves, it's really at odds at the idea of liking each other's company without wanting to be a couple Plus we are later shown how Chibi-Usa is romantically attracted to someone else and that relationship is shown in a markedly different light than her relationship with Hotaru. Unfortunately, despite them being good friends there's a prurience that seeps its way into the fandom concerning these two because of HLA with a side of pedophilia, and it's blending a lot of things that shouldn't be together in terms of undertones. The two clearly have a very strong platonic bond so by all rights they should be in the familial category, but all of the context pushes them to the bottom.
I don't like Mamoru, but even Fisheye realized Mamoru would never be a viable partner and one of the points of Fisheye's redemption hinges on that. For those two to eventually get together would seemingly negate that.
I'm ageist, but in all seriousness, I never got the impression Usagi's parents even loved each other. They were just...parents like in all kids media, meaning that they were largely de-sexualized. That also means I wouldn't want to see them all lovey-dovey. Heck, I don't even want to think of my own parents that way.
As for Ami and Minako, they're too contrasting, even more than Ami and Usagi. At least Usagi, even in her early instances of selfishness, is sensitive enough to be told she is wrong and Ami is also sensitive enough to criticism. In other words they can talk to each other and listen to each other, and both are generally caring people who can be the sisters each never had. By contrast Minako is famous for being someone who will never let anyone see her cry if it's not on cue by a director. If Ami cautions her and it's not on-duty, I don't see Minako listening. Plus they literally have nothing in common; they don't even go to the same school at first and their personalities aren't complementing even in the sense that they are with the other girls.
Even the old anime very rarely had many direct one-on-one interactions between the two because of this. Some people's personalities just don't work one-on-one, let alone in a couple.
That's my point, it's unlikely we ever saw the "real" Kaolinite.
We saw the contrast between Possesed!Tomoe and normal Tomoe. Even if you can't reconcile the manga backstory where it's explicitly shown Kaolinite being vesselized with the old anime, it's kind of hinted at that she's undergone something to give her eyes that dead-eyed look. It's not a stretch to assume its also amplifying her worst traits.
Hotaru's mom isn't coming back and the professor could use some company.
I never finished Another Story, I played maybe about a few minutes of it and gave up due to how grindy it was.
Maybe Ami and Viluy didn't get off on the right foot and as you mentioned, Viluy wasn't being evil to be evil there. That leads me to believe in other circumstances that didn't call for contrived conflict as that episode did, those two would really get along even if they had different approaches. It would have been nice if both had become friends.
What better way to make Demande really irredeemable, beyond the attempted SA on Usagi, than to make him shallow enough to go after her replacement just because he could. The same is true of Black Lady in that she's been brainwashed so badly that she's willing to literally couple with the enemy. It would show how far both have fallen, or likely were manipulated by Wiseman. They're villains who are doing villainous things.
In this specific case, my distaste is overruled by the sliver of interesting storyline potential. It's still something I don't support, but shippers, gonna ship and at least it's NOT Black Lady/Mamoru.
As far as Mamoru and Chibi-Usa goes, I wish he weren't Chibi-Usa's father. That's how much I dislike the guy and the whole UsaMamo ship. Seriously, I wish she were either Seijuurou or Demande's kid.
My objection to Pluto in a ship is because of the old anime, I read her as acearo. I know she's not in most of the other incarnations, but I really liked the idea of a character who did not desire romance, intimacy, or intercourse.
I'm biased against polyamory, but to stay on topic, there's a bigger problem here - all the of the characters in these not only clearly desire monogamy but are far too possessive and stubborn to make any healthy poly relationship work. The only exception might be Minako, but again, she needs to find a partner who would be suitable.
Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are just kids and more importantly, it is stressed that both girls have trouble making friends. Even though it's "fun" to ship them because of both their contrasts and their "adult bodied" evil selves, it's really at odds at the idea of liking each other's company without wanting to be a couple Plus we are later shown how Chibi-Usa is romantically attracted to someone else and that relationship is shown in a markedly different light than her relationship with Hotaru. Unfortunately, despite them being good friends there's a prurience that seeps its way into the fandom concerning these two because of HLA with a side of pedophilia, and it's blending a lot of things that shouldn't be together in terms of undertones. The two clearly have a very strong platonic bond so by all rights they should be in the familial category, but all of the context pushes them to the bottom.
I don't like Mamoru, but even Fisheye realized Mamoru would never be a viable partner and one of the points of Fisheye's redemption hinges on that. For those two to eventually get together would seemingly negate that.
I'm ageist, but in all seriousness, I never got the impression Usagi's parents even loved each other. They were just...parents like in all kids media, meaning that they were largely de-sexualized. That also means I wouldn't want to see them all lovey-dovey. Heck, I don't even want to think of my own parents that way.
As for Ami and Minako, they're too contrasting, even more than Ami and Usagi. At least Usagi, even in her early instances of selfishness, is sensitive enough to be told she is wrong and Ami is also sensitive enough to criticism. In other words they can talk to each other and listen to each other, and both are generally caring people who can be the sisters each never had. By contrast Minako is famous for being someone who will never let anyone see her cry if it's not on cue by a director. If Ami cautions her and it's not on-duty, I don't see Minako listening. Plus they literally have nothing in common; they don't even go to the same school at first and their personalities aren't complementing even in the sense that they are with the other girls.
Even the old anime very rarely had many direct one-on-one interactions between the two because of this. Some people's personalities just don't work one-on-one, let alone in a couple.
That's my point, it's unlikely we ever saw the "real" Kaolinite.
We saw the contrast between Possesed!Tomoe and normal Tomoe. Even if you can't reconcile the manga backstory where it's explicitly shown Kaolinite being vesselized with the old anime, it's kind of hinted at that she's undergone something to give her eyes that dead-eyed look. It's not a stretch to assume its also amplifying her worst traits.
Hotaru's mom isn't coming back and the professor could use some company.
I never finished Another Story, I played maybe about a few minutes of it and gave up due to how grindy it was.
Maybe Ami and Viluy didn't get off on the right foot and as you mentioned, Viluy wasn't being evil to be evil there. That leads me to believe in other circumstances that didn't call for contrived conflict as that episode did, those two would really get along even if they had different approaches. It would have been nice if both had become friends.
In her case, probably because the Serenity line kept her locked up in a room for a couple thousand years.
Made me crack up. If you're saying Kaori got possessed, makes sense enough. She has those same "basic villain" eyes as Lethe. I wonder how really aware she was of Germatoid to not seem to care, if she was. And though it sort of has an answer, why didn't he revive her again? Where'd she even go? Physically and otherwise? Iirc, she was in his life before Germatoid took him over, but M9 blasts her out of the plot itself. But better her as the stepmom than Cyprine.
Or is it?
I phrased that poorly towards the end; I meant to say that in Another Story, the Shitennou were presented respectably as "guides" for their pairings, gathering sacred stones. You're right that the encounter rate for that game is way too high.
Meta-wise, it's contrived (the show calls her "kind-hearted" when she gloats at Viluy's disintegration), but I have to blame Ami in lore for needlessly provoking Viluy. Acting like a true middle schooler.
--@Tsundereshipper Realized this might've read wrong: "Canon-wise, a few, but in terms of writing overall, none of them."
Just in case, I meant I don't have a problem with any of your list in terms of writing if it's done well. You could've even had Mimete regret charm busting Mina after she did it and saw Mina gasping. That counts for something more than, "Now, mook, get Jonah's heart!" even if she doesn't actually repent. Especially if she focuses more on Mina's pain than everyone else's.
Made me crack up. If you're saying Kaori got possessed, makes sense enough. She has those same "basic villain" eyes as Lethe. I wonder how really aware she was of Germatoid to not seem to care, if she was. And though it sort of has an answer, why didn't he revive her again? Where'd she even go? Physically and otherwise? Iirc, she was in his life before Germatoid took him over, but M9 blasts her out of the plot itself. But better her as the stepmom than Cyprine.
Or is it?
Spoiler: show
I phrased that poorly towards the end; I meant to say that in Another Story, the Shitennou were presented respectably as "guides" for their pairings, gathering sacred stones. You're right that the encounter rate for that game is way too high.
Meta-wise, it's contrived (the show calls her "kind-hearted" when she gloats at Viluy's disintegration), but I have to blame Ami in lore for needlessly provoking Viluy. Acting like a true middle schooler.
--@Tsundereshipper Realized this might've read wrong: "Canon-wise, a few, but in terms of writing overall, none of them."
Just in case, I meant I don't have a problem with any of your list in terms of writing if it's done well. You could've even had Mimete regret charm busting Mina after she did it and saw Mina gasping. That counts for something more than, "Now, mook, get Jonah's heart!" even if she doesn't actually repent. Especially if she focuses more on Mina's pain than everyone else's.
Last edited:
I have to admit if Chibi-Usa initially appeared in the story as an adult Demande/Black Lady could make for a very interesting premise. I mean here’s this girl who’s always been struggling with being perceived outside of her mother’s shadow and a guy who’s into her solely because she looks like her mother and is the next best thing around if he can’t have said mother. The angst would be off the charts! Shame Chibi-Usa is a child because I just can’t get past the initial pedophilia otherwise.
I mean UsaMamo is a pretty terrible pairing especially in the 90’s anime no doubt, but what makes you hate Mamoru himself so much? Even going as far as to prefer a literal attempted rapist over him? (No judgement, I’m just intensely curious.)
To be fair they are pretty heavily ship teased in the Manga/Crystal, but if you’re going by the 90’s anime they absolutely are only best friends.
I actually find Minako/Ami to be a pretty underrated dynamic as far as Senshi/Senshi pairs go, but maybe it’s only because I’m viewing them through the lens of the Codename Sailor V manga where Ami is basically a carbon copy of Minako’s original best friend Hikaru.
I mean UsaMamo is a pretty terrible pairing especially in the 90’s anime no doubt, but what makes you hate Mamoru himself so much? Even going as far as to prefer a literal attempted rapist over him? (No judgement, I’m just intensely curious.)
To be fair they are pretty heavily ship teased in the Manga/Crystal, but if you’re going by the 90’s anime they absolutely are only best friends.
I actually find Minako/Ami to be a pretty underrated dynamic as far as Senshi/Senshi pairs go, but maybe it’s only because I’m viewing them through the lens of the Codename Sailor V manga where Ami is basically a carbon copy of Minako’s original best friend Hikaru.
Likes:
RebelOfDaNew and Nadia
Note that in PGSM, Rei was briefly "paired" w/ human Jadeite, tho no romance was involved between the two. lol
Likes:
Nadia and RebelOfDaNew
Not to mention during the Cosmos era. Still not sure that question has an answer.
Through the fire and flames?
Just to harp on this point again, I wonder whether Kaori and [possibly] Cyprine would have still felt the same way for Tomoe if they knew what kind of thing he was possessed by. That's probably the main reason Kaori became like a nobody when M9 appeared (she wasn't even in the intro)--because they wouldn't have wanted to write her reaction to finding that out.
Through the fire and flames?
Just to harp on this point again, I wonder whether Kaori and [possibly] Cyprine would have still felt the same way for Tomoe if they knew what kind of thing he was possessed by. That's probably the main reason Kaori became like a nobody when M9 appeared (she wasn't even in the intro)--because they wouldn't have wanted to write her reaction to finding that out.
Spoiler: show
I'm just addressing these points and I'm hopefully done.
I make no bones about what Demande did, and I pretty much jettison the idea of their manga selves ever getting together (and I think Crystal's alteration in his death scene was stupid and clearly done to thrown a bone to old anime fans).
That said, in the 90's anime he was much more clearly negatively influenced like nearly the entire Black Moon Clan hierarchy. We saw how quickly the Sisters went from twisted to tame and they gleefully tried to kill a kid. While Demande's not being mind-controlled and has agency over his actions, Demande clearly is being swayed to the point where he started even lashing out at his own brother who he dearly loved.
Admittedly, it is pretty much bending canon, but most of these ships are, and I could see a version of Demande who actually was of his right mind still be persistent in a pursuit of Usagi without being forceful or harassing, as well as positively encourage her to be better than what she is and Usagi falling for him at first because of the shallow aspects (he's "cute" and "sophisticated") but staying in love because is able to lead. She would be able learn from him aspects of leadership and he would be able to learn from her compassion.
As for the things I hate 90's anime Mamoru for...
1. Repeatedly, relentlessly mocking a 14-year old girl on a regular basis. Yes, I know the anime tried to frame it through the goal of him only trying to "improve" Usagi who needed his tough criticism to sharpen her up, but there never seemed to be any support, just nagging. She already got that in Classic from both Luna and Rei. Keep in mind that it's never hinted or stated he's a jerk to her due to his extenuating circumstances or even because he's evil. He's just a jerk. I'd never want anyone to treat a love interest that way repeatedly.
2. The whole amnesiac era in the first half of R. I get he doesn't have his memory and that the Moonlight Knight took his place. However, why exactly is he hanging out with this group of girls if he doesn't remember who they are? Why is Usagi so bent out of shape over a man who still picks on her (at least not as much anymore) and clearly only sees her as a friend? And why is it in the last episode of the arc he suddenly "realizes" he has feelings for Usagi even though none of their moments seem to have led up to this revelation? Usagi was being as pushy on him to be with her as Natsumi was, but he didn't really want to give either the time of day. He's not showing interest in his soul mate, so why as viewers should we care for him?
3. The infamous break-up arc. So after all that happened to make the Miracle Romance complete, Mamoru decides to break things off with Usagi just when she needs his support more than ever now that a little stranger has hypnotized her family and is gaslighting her. Usagi forgives him super-easily, too, when she starts getting the same dream. Keep in mind without that development, they never would have gotten back together. Even when Sailor Moon's life depended on him returning her love he told her they weren't tied by the red string of destiny, and despite all this she takes this man back. They spend more time in R not being a couple than being a couple, which is undermines the whole resolution of them getting together.
Just about anyone -- and, yes, I include an attempted rapist -- would be better than this (and yet Seiya manages to be just as bad).
And about Hotaru and Chibi-usa...
That Crystal opening made me internally scream in that one shot. I know it's a different cultural context, but still it made me uncomfortable and worried Chris Hansen wouldn't magically appear to tell me to have a seat.
I make no bones about what Demande did, and I pretty much jettison the idea of their manga selves ever getting together (and I think Crystal's alteration in his death scene was stupid and clearly done to thrown a bone to old anime fans).
That said, in the 90's anime he was much more clearly negatively influenced like nearly the entire Black Moon Clan hierarchy. We saw how quickly the Sisters went from twisted to tame and they gleefully tried to kill a kid. While Demande's not being mind-controlled and has agency over his actions, Demande clearly is being swayed to the point where he started even lashing out at his own brother who he dearly loved.
Admittedly, it is pretty much bending canon, but most of these ships are, and I could see a version of Demande who actually was of his right mind still be persistent in a pursuit of Usagi without being forceful or harassing, as well as positively encourage her to be better than what she is and Usagi falling for him at first because of the shallow aspects (he's "cute" and "sophisticated") but staying in love because is able to lead. She would be able learn from him aspects of leadership and he would be able to learn from her compassion.
As for the things I hate 90's anime Mamoru for...
1. Repeatedly, relentlessly mocking a 14-year old girl on a regular basis. Yes, I know the anime tried to frame it through the goal of him only trying to "improve" Usagi who needed his tough criticism to sharpen her up, but there never seemed to be any support, just nagging. She already got that in Classic from both Luna and Rei. Keep in mind that it's never hinted or stated he's a jerk to her due to his extenuating circumstances or even because he's evil. He's just a jerk. I'd never want anyone to treat a love interest that way repeatedly.
2. The whole amnesiac era in the first half of R. I get he doesn't have his memory and that the Moonlight Knight took his place. However, why exactly is he hanging out with this group of girls if he doesn't remember who they are? Why is Usagi so bent out of shape over a man who still picks on her (at least not as much anymore) and clearly only sees her as a friend? And why is it in the last episode of the arc he suddenly "realizes" he has feelings for Usagi even though none of their moments seem to have led up to this revelation? Usagi was being as pushy on him to be with her as Natsumi was, but he didn't really want to give either the time of day. He's not showing interest in his soul mate, so why as viewers should we care for him?
3. The infamous break-up arc. So after all that happened to make the Miracle Romance complete, Mamoru decides to break things off with Usagi just when she needs his support more than ever now that a little stranger has hypnotized her family and is gaslighting her. Usagi forgives him super-easily, too, when she starts getting the same dream. Keep in mind without that development, they never would have gotten back together. Even when Sailor Moon's life depended on him returning her love he told her they weren't tied by the red string of destiny, and despite all this she takes this man back. They spend more time in R not being a couple than being a couple, which is undermines the whole resolution of them getting together.
Just about anyone -- and, yes, I include an attempted rapist -- would be better than this (and yet Seiya manages to be just as bad).
And about Hotaru and Chibi-usa...
That Crystal opening made me internally scream in that one shot. I know it's a different cultural context, but still it made me uncomfortable and worried Chris Hansen wouldn't magically appear to tell me to have a seat.
Last edited:
Sorry everyone, I've misremembered that 
- she wasn't paired w/ human Jadeite, but this guy: Kouta Takai - WikiMoon.
- she wasn't paired w/ human Jadeite, but this guy: Kouta Takai - WikiMoon.
I may get attacked for this, but I honestly don’t think 90’s Mamoru and Usagi are a bad pairing. Personally, I like ships that give some hardships and have the characters make mistakes (especially when it’s not done again) even if those mistakes might make them seem less perfect while showing some unpleasant characteristics. It makes them more human.
People nowadays mostly just want the soft, warm-fuzzy scenes that they can gush over all the time and due to this, most modern ships are either just sweet, soft and fuzzy or just down right toxic (for example, those popular ships where at least one repeatedly tries to kill the other one). Speaking of toxic, I disliked that I had to use this word because it’s overused by people who like to use it as a label for things they simply don’t like or to uplift another ship(whether it’s a different ship or a different version of the ship they like better). I’ve seen it used to describe 90’s Mamoru and Usagi to which I disagree on.
Back on the subject of warm and fuzziness, it seems that majority of the people who prefer this tend to can’t handle conflicts that may display unpleasant behavior and then just calls things “trash” because the poor decision the character made. By that logic and reasoning, I guess we’re all trash. This is just what I notice from people I’ve witnessed when it comes to shipping.
People nowadays mostly just want the soft, warm-fuzzy scenes that they can gush over all the time and due to this, most modern ships are either just sweet, soft and fuzzy or just down right toxic (for example, those popular ships where at least one repeatedly tries to kill the other one). Speaking of toxic, I disliked that I had to use this word because it’s overused by people who like to use it as a label for things they simply don’t like or to uplift another ship(whether it’s a different ship or a different version of the ship they like better). I’ve seen it used to describe 90’s Mamoru and Usagi to which I disagree on.
Back on the subject of warm and fuzziness, it seems that majority of the people who prefer this tend to can’t handle conflicts that may display unpleasant behavior and then just calls things “trash” because the poor decision the character made. By that logic and reasoning, I guess we’re all trash. This is just what I notice from people I’ve witnessed when it comes to shipping.
Why would you get attacked for stating your opinion?
I do understand and to a certain point agree that some modern ships are flat for the reasons you describe. I would counter that ships made of mortal enemies or people otherwise wrong for each other can be entertaining and useful if they show precisely why that union is truly harmful or doomed to fail (bonus points if we get a fusion like Steven Universe Malachite or Reboot's Gigabyte out of it). It probably is a minority opinion that Mamoru and Usagi are bad for each other.
I guess for me, even as a minor watching the DiC dub, my issue with the main ship is that aside from the climactic moments...there was never any indication that in their present lives, they even cared about each other as people, at least outside the battlefield.
In the end, though, ships are largely about wish fulfillment and aren't meant to be taken seriously. That people do take ships seriously is part of the problem. For instance, I did the tier list to spur discussion, romance is not my biggest priority. I really don't watch Sailor Moon for the romance. I watch it for elemental warriors fighting evil by moonlight. I don't particularly care if they win love by daylight - I'm more interested in the other parts of their lives.
I do understand and to a certain point agree that some modern ships are flat for the reasons you describe. I would counter that ships made of mortal enemies or people otherwise wrong for each other can be entertaining and useful if they show precisely why that union is truly harmful or doomed to fail (bonus points if we get a fusion like Steven Universe Malachite or Reboot's Gigabyte out of it). It probably is a minority opinion that Mamoru and Usagi are bad for each other.
I guess for me, even as a minor watching the DiC dub, my issue with the main ship is that aside from the climactic moments...there was never any indication that in their present lives, they even cared about each other as people, at least outside the battlefield.
In the end, though, ships are largely about wish fulfillment and aren't meant to be taken seriously. That people do take ships seriously is part of the problem. For instance, I did the tier list to spur discussion, romance is not my biggest priority. I really don't watch Sailor Moon for the romance. I watch it for elemental warriors fighting evil by moonlight. I don't particularly care if they win love by daylight - I'm more interested in the other parts of their lives.
I’ve been attacked a few times on social media for not going with the trend of trashing 90’s Mamoru and his relationship with Usagi, so I’m just always prepared to put my defensive walls up. It tends to happen when you constantly have to defend a character or ship that people or the internet in general like to trash on.
I mean sure, there are bad pairings in the anime, TV, and all sorts of different forms of media. I just simply don’t think Mamoru’s and Usagi’s representation from the 90’s is one, especially when we have popular pairings where one tries to kill or sexually harass the other one in the pairing and some of those same people on Twitter attacked me for. that some tend to over-exaggerate their dislike for them by throwing around words like toxic just because they aren’t the modern soft, warm fuzzy couple they want to drool over. Disliking a pairing or character does not automatically equal toxic. I strongly dislike a ship on a TV show, but I know they aren’t toxic just because I can’t stand them. I just don’t they’re (Spencer and Caleb) a good couple and were better as friends.
People do use ships for wish fulfillment, but as you’ve said, some take it seriously and even sometimes have their unrealistic expectations carry over in real life and expect relationships to be like that. 90’s Usagi and Mamoru portrays the reality of a relationship rather than the idealized expectation that people want to envy for not having.
I mean sure, there are bad pairings in the anime, TV, and all sorts of different forms of media. I just simply don’t think Mamoru’s and Usagi’s representation from the 90’s is one, especially when we have popular pairings where one tries to kill or sexually harass the other one in the pairing and some of those same people on Twitter attacked me for. that some tend to over-exaggerate their dislike for them by throwing around words like toxic just because they aren’t the modern soft, warm fuzzy couple they want to drool over. Disliking a pairing or character does not automatically equal toxic. I strongly dislike a ship on a TV show, but I know they aren’t toxic just because I can’t stand them. I just don’t they’re (Spencer and Caleb) a good couple and were better as friends.
People do use ships for wish fulfillment, but as you’ve said, some take it seriously and even sometimes have their unrealistic expectations carry over in real life and expect relationships to be like that. 90’s Usagi and Mamoru portrays the reality of a relationship rather than the idealized expectation that people want to envy for not having.
The only pairing I seriously ship is Pluto/Beryl because I really can't imagine either of them being with anyone else. I like Rei/Minako, but I also root for Rei/Yuuchirou in the '90s anime, and I could get behind Minako/Motoki or Minako/Mimete. I love Mako/Motoki in PGSM, but in the manga, I'm more of a Mako/Asanuma and an Ami/Motoki shipper. (I could also get behind Ami/Umino, Ami/Viluy, or Ami/Saphir.) I ship Hotaru/Chibiusa, but I don't mind Chibiusa/Perle. Aesthetically speaking, I think Esmeraude/Michiru would make a fabulous couple, but I'd probably prefer them to just become friends than lovers. I love Siren/Crow in the '90s anime, but I could also get behind Crow and Hawk's Eye. Honestly, I could probably get behind just about any pairing that isn't incest or an adult and a child.
Likes:
ChampionOfNuggets
PGSM-wise, I could ship human Luna X Shingo & Ami X Shingo - not sure whether those two ships are appropriate, tho, as the former ship could be bordering to bestiality while the latter one pedophilia. 
Rei and Jadeite do have something in the Another Story chapters btw.
Spoiler: show
@Tsundereshipper Also you like Lethe/Limousine but where are they on your list?
That’s not why I don’t ship them, personally I just really can’t stand ships based around the “Destined/Fated Lovers” trope and nothing else. That whole dynamic leaves a really bad taste in my mouth and just ends up coming off feeling forced, contrived and of surface-level shallowness rather than any actual substance built through genuine chemistry and interactions. I feel the same way about Shigure/Akito in Fruits Basket (Who follow a similiar trajectory of the trope if you’re familiar with the series) so it’s not like UsaMamo is unique in this regard.
And especially in the 90’s anime I never got the sense that Mamoru was with her for any other reason outside of Destiny for all the reasons Nadia mentioned so that version makes me particular adverse to the ship. (Doesn’t help that it’s the version where he acts most like her dad rather than her lover due to the widened age gap and Usagi’s lowered maturity.)
In fact I would go as far to say that during Classic when they were bickering was when their dynamic was at it’s best and most interesting in the 90’s anime, it all went downhill from there though.
Same, except for me it’s only heterosexual incest that I have a problem with (due to inbreeding) I make exceptions for same-sex incest pairs though so long as they’re relatively close in age and consenting adults.
Unfortunately neither tier bothered to include Lethe/Mneosyne (nor Minako/Ace which I would’ve also liked to see as far as manga exclusive ships go) but if they had they would definitely be somewhere between “AWOOGA” and “Not my Fave, but fun to think about from time to time.”
And especially in the 90’s anime I never got the sense that Mamoru was with her for any other reason outside of Destiny for all the reasons Nadia mentioned so that version makes me particular adverse to the ship. (Doesn’t help that it’s the version where he acts most like her dad rather than her lover due to the widened age gap and Usagi’s lowered maturity.)
In fact I would go as far to say that during Classic when they were bickering was when their dynamic was at it’s best and most interesting in the 90’s anime, it all went downhill from there though.
Same, except for me it’s only heterosexual incest that I have a problem with (due to inbreeding) I make exceptions for same-sex incest pairs though so long as they’re relatively close in age and consenting adults.
Unfortunately neither tier bothered to include Lethe/Mneosyne (nor Minako/Ace which I would’ve also liked to see as far as manga exclusive ships go) but if they had they would definitely be somewhere between “AWOOGA” and “Not my Fave, but fun to think about from time to time.”