The Chibi Chibi / Cosmos Problem

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MementoNepenthe

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#1
As we all know, in the manga, Chibi Chibi is revealed to be Sailor Cosmos, Usagi's distant future self. This is all well and good until we remember that in Act 20, it was established that "it's not possible for more than one of the same person to exist in the same time and space."



Now sure, one could argue that perhaps through the power of the Cosmos Crystal and/or by taking on the form of Chibi Chibi, Sailor Cosmos was able to circumvent this issue, but that's exactly the kind of lazy plot hole plaster I hate.

So how would I fix the Chibi Chibi problem?

For starters, I would not have her be Sailor Cosmos. Rather, I'd use Sailor Cosmos as a framing device: The Stars arc would open with her at the Galaxy Cauldron after another brutal battle with Chaos, once again faced with the question of whether or not to destroy the Cauldron. Sailor Cosmos thinks back to the first time she came there, proceeding to relate the events of the Stars arc (either to herself or to Guardian Cosmos) as a flashback, with occasional cuts back to Cosmos in the future, the arc ending in more or less the same way.

Now, as for Chibi Chibi... I'd make her Princess Kakyuu's daughter with Sailor Cocoon/Heavy Metal Papillon.

The original character concept sheet for Papillon from the Materials Collection mentions that she's a mother, but this is never indicated in the finished manga:



Building off that idea, what if Chibi Chibi were her daughter? Her daughter with Kakyuu? That would certainly tie in nicely with the butterfly motif that surrounds Chibi Chibi and Kakyuu in the anime.

In Act 52, we're told that "Princess Kakyu lost her beloved to Galaxia, too,"



and while the implication is that Galaxia killed Kakyuu's lover, what if she simply brainwashed her into becoming one of her stooges? That's what Galaxia does with Mamoru and the Sailor Team, after all, so why wouldn't she do the same with Kakyuu's lover as a way of messing with her?

Because Planet Cocoon is never mentioned in the manga, there's nothing to say "Sailor Heavy Metal Papillon" isn't a real Sailor Soldier. There's nothing to say Cocoon wasn't part of or near the Kinmoku Star System. There's nothing to say Kakyuu's lover wasn't a woman. There's nothing to say two women can't have a child together in the Sailor Moon universe. (I mean, if Princess Serenity can be the result of presumably parthenogenesis...)

I think making Chibi Chibi the daughter of Kakyuu and Papillon would be a nice way of tying these groups of characters together and creating additional dramatic/emotional stakes that would increase our investment in the story. (It would also help flesh out why Chibi Chibi seems so attached to Kakyuu.)

So yeah, just some thoughts I had on how to fix the Chibi Chibi/Cosmos plot hole. What do you think of my suggestion? Any alternative solutions?
 

Lady Pen

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#2
I prefer what Takuya Hiramitsu made in Le Mouvement Final. In the musical Cosmos was a distant reincarnation of Usagi. That fixes some problems. According to that theory Sailor Cosmos and Usagi would have different bodies what would mean they're different people. So that space-time rule couldn't be applied, could it?

In her defence, putting the character in context (the year her chapters were released, her vague japanese dialogue, and the little info we've got of her creation) Cosmos is sooooo mysterious and sooooo ambiguous I wouldn't say she is a future Usagi. I wouldn't take Sailor Ceres words seriously.
 

MementoNepenthe

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#3
I don't know that reincarnation is really a good enough explanation; I guess it would depend on whether or not the Cosmos Crystal is really a completely different Sailor Crystal from the Silver Moon Crystal. If so, then I guess they could coexist, but if the Cosmos Crystal is just a powered up version of the Silver Moon Crystal, the two should still count as the same thing and not be allowed to coexist.
 

sapphire91

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Jul 6, 2018
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#5
To be honest Cosmos being distant future form of Usagi makes no sense as it was established she stopped being a guardian once Chibi Usa was born. OG Queen Serenity never came back in new forms as she wasn't a guardian anymore as well. While I can see Chibi Chibi being Kakyuu's daughter why does she have to have anything to do with Metal Papillon?
 
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Apr 16, 2013
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#7
I prefer what Takuya Hiramitsu made in Le Mouvement Final. In the musical Cosmos was a distant reincarnation of Usagi. That fixes some problems. According to that theory Sailor Cosmos and Usagi would have different bodies what would mean they're different people. So that space-time rule couldn't be applied, could it?

In her defence, putting the character in context (the year her chapters were released, her vague japanese dialogue, and the little info we've got of her creation) Cosmos is sooooo mysterious and sooooo ambiguous I wouldn't say she is a future Usagi. I wouldn't take Sailor Ceres words seriously.
For me, Sailor Cosmos no longer has a connection with the Moon. His emblem on the forehead is there to say it.
Even if she remains Usagi, her essence, her cradle planet has changed and has become that of the Cosmos.

This is how I see things to explain why two entities of the same person can coexist on the same plane. Two same people but a different origin.
 

Crystal Moon

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Jul 11, 2013
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#8
As the Neo Queen Serenity, she may not even knew the existence of Black Moon, Galaxy Cauldron, let alone Sailor Cosmos. Maybe it's the new mission after ChibiUsa becomes the next Queen?
 

Seira Hazuki

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Jan 17, 2007
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#9
I don't know that reincarnation is really a good enough explanation; I guess it would depend on whether or not the Cosmos Crystal is really a completely different Sailor Crystal from the Silver Moon Crystal. If so, then I guess they could coexist, but if the Cosmos Crystal is just a powered up version of the Silver Moon Crystal, the two should still count as the same thing and not be allowed to coexist.
From my understanding of the manga, the Cosmos Crystal is the combination of all the Sailor Crystals in the galaxy. So technically it does contain the Silver Moon Crystal. Now whether the Cosmos Crystal activated by Usagi at the end of Act 60 is the same as the Sailor Crystal that Sailor Cosmos wields is a different story... However, it's clear Naoko was trying to connect the two since she she named the character Sailor Cosmos.

For me, Sailor Cosmos no longer has a connection with the Moon. His emblem on the forehead is there to say it.
Even if she remains Usagi, her essence, her cradle planet has changed and has become that of the Cosmos.

This is how I see things to explain why two entities of the same person can coexist on the same plane. Two same people but a different origin.
This is how I interpreted it as well. Usagi in that point and time is no longer a Guardian of the Moon, but the Guardian of essentially every celestial body connected to the Galaxy Cauldron. I would assume that means she's probably undergone some kind of dramatic change which would essentially make her a different person (maybe becoming something akin to a goddess).

I've also personally just hand-waved that silly rule Naoko made in Black Moon arc with my personal headcanon that Sailor Cosmos transforming into Chibi Chibi circumvented it.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#10
Sailor Cosmos should be Usagi. Since Usagi is the main character obviously it makes sense for her to become one of the most powerful Sailor Senshi of all that exists. Making Sailor Cosmos into Kakyuu and Heavy Metal Papillon's daughter is silly especially since she looks so much like Usagi as is.

Again I think the obvious explanation is that the Cosmos Crystal's Lambda Power allows Usagi to circumvent regular rules of Space-Time as it can do quite alot of strange things.

Plus I believe with regard to the Animamates in the manga as opposed to the 90s anime is that they willingly stole the Sailor Crystals of the Sailor Senshi of their worlds and turned evil and were not brainwashed.

Now in the 90s anime canon it was more as you stated with the Sailor Animamates being originally good Sailor Senshi brainwashed by Sailor Galaxia and I always thought were given these false Animamate names and even new outfits and identities when she brought them back from the dead to better be able to control them because unlike in the manga Sailor Galaxia does not have absolute control over her subordinates and if they have a powerful enough will like Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune can break her control so by killing a Sailor Senshi who previously resisted and fought against her and turning her into a Animamate she then gains a more power and control over them. Think of it being like on Spirited Away when Yubaba took away Chihiro's true name and gave her the false name Sen.

Likewise I think in the 90s anime canon that Sailor Tin Nyanko is actually Sailor Mau and that the White outfit we see half of when one of Galaxia's Golden Bracelets are knocked off of her is her true form as Sailor Mau and her true identity and that likewise Sailor Iron Mouse would actually be the false brainwashed form of Sailor Chuu, Sailor Aluminum Siren would truly be Sailor Mermaid, Sailor Lead Crow would truly be Sailor Coronis etc. However in the manga however from what I have seen the Animamates were non Senshi jealous of the powers of the Senshi of their homeworld and conspired with Galaxia to kill them and take their Crystals.
 
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MementoNepenthe

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#11
Sailor Cosmos should be Usagi. Since Usagi is the main character obviously it makes sense for her to become one of the most powerful Sailor Senshi of all that exists. Making Sailor Cosmos into Kakyuu and Heavy Metal Papillon's daughter is silly especially since she looks so much like Usagi as is.
And that's not what I suggested at all. I'm suggesting making Cosmos and Chibi Chibi separate characters. Cosmos would still be Usagi obviously, but Chibi Chibi would not be. And she looks like Usagi how? Because she has odango? So do like thirty other characters.
 

Lady Pen

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#12
Does that mean that Princess Serenity and Usagi Tsukino could also co-exist in the same time and space?
No idea. If Serenity and Usagi had the same crystal I suppose they couldn't.

For me, Sailor Cosmos no longer has a connection with the Moon. His emblem on the forehead is there to say it.
Even if she remains Usagi, her essence, her cradle planet has changed and has become that of the Cosmos.

This is how I see things to explain why two entities of the same person can coexist on the same plane. Two same people but a different origin.
You might have a point there.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#13
And that's not what I suggested at all. I'm suggesting making Cosmos and Chibi Chibi separate characters. Cosmos would still be Usagi obviously, but Chibi Chibi would not be. And she looks like Usagi how? Because she has odango? So do like thirty other characters.
Oh ok I miss read well yeah I would like for Chibi Chibi to be a separate character. I wouldn't mind her being Kakyuu and Papillon's daughter in this arc.
 
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Rika-Chicchi

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#14
Back then when I saw Chibi Chibi for the very 1st time on print I thought she were Chibiusa's daughter, hence Usagi's grand daughter, coming from the future. :chibichibi: :chibiusa: :usagi:
 
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MementoNepenthe

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#15
^ And that's part of why I don't like the Cosmos Crystal explanation: Chibi Chibi's identity is treated like a mystery: is she Usagi's second daughter? Chibiusa's daughter? Someone else? If the answer directly conflicts with a previously established rule, then that solution isn't fair to the reader, who then couldn't have figured it out without ignoring contradictory information. At least when we first see her, Chibi Chibi immediately comes across Kakyuu's body, so it's possible to suspect some kind of connection there.
 
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#17
At least when we first see her, Chibi Chibi immediately comes across Kakyuu's body, so it's possible to suspect some kind of connection there.
I don't think we could have seen a connection. Each character has a key role to play. Kakyu is the one who takes Sailor Moon to Galaxia and Chaos. That's not the role of Chibi Chibi.
Chibi-Chibi's role is to destroy the cauldron and force Sailor Moon to do so.
Everything is written in fate, in the future, and there must be no changes.
 

kasumigenx

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#18
I don't think we could have seen a connection. Each character has a key role to play. Kakyu is the one who takes Sailor Moon to Galaxia and Chaos. That's not the role of Chibi Chibi.
Chibi-Chibi's role is to destroy the cauldron and force Sailor Moon to do so.
Everything is written in fate, in the future, and there must be no changes.
The queen who lost everything backstory went to Galaxia in the anime.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#19
Back then when I saw Chibi Chibi for the very 1st time on print I thought she were Chibiusa's daughter, hence Usagi's grand daughter, coming from the future. :chibichibi::chibiusa::usagi:
Alot of people did even in the 90s anime of Sailor Stars when Setsuna shot down the idea of Chibi Chibi being Usagi's second daughter and Chibiusa's sister because as she said as far as she knew Neo Queen Serenity and King Endymion only had one daughter Small Lady/Chibiusa the Inners floated around the idea that maybe she is Chibiusa's daughter from the future and Setsuna didn't shoot down that possibility because I suppose she didn't have any foreknowledge on who or if Chibiusa had children.
 
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RebelOfDaNew

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#20
Iirc, the time paradox isn't instantaneous. Moon was supposedly fading at the end of [whatever the R equivalent of the manga is] even as she and Chibimoon were destroying Nemesis/Wiseman. Idr why. My guess is, cause she was in the future with Neo or something. That'd explain why Neo never ever once spoke to her, so she could get away. If so, as Cosmos is even further in the future than Moon and Neo, she is under the effect but much weaker than normal. Or, since she's Cosmos, it doesn't matter to her at all.

More egregious is that Cosmos is equal to Chaos in power while the Neo Queen supposedly "can't fight" now that she's the queen. That was nonsense.
 
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