Crystal could have redeem the four sisters

[Princess Sugar Lily]

I'm pretty sure the reason why Demande wasn't made sympathetic in the slightest in the manga was because he was supposed to be a commentary on toxic masculinity and rape culture, he is literally the face of it. And that makes it all the more powerful when Usagi is able to stare him down in the face and escape from his grasp using her own power and the help of her best female friends. Compare that to the 90's anime where Tux has to fly in to save her like she's some kind of damsel. It's clear to me that while in the 90's anime Demande was meant to be an actual character, in the Manga he's meant to be more of a representation, a good way of teaching young tween girls about female empowerment and the dangers of a Toxically Masculine attitude. Demande's extreme violence, belief that peace and tranquility is an illusion and for the weak and that love can be taken by force? All textbook examples of Toxic Masculinity at play.

Personally this is why Crystal's changing of his death is one of the changes that angers me the most. What exactly did it accomplish? I don't know about you but that change didn't make Demande come off anymore sympathetic one iota. He's still ultimately "protecting" her so he can kill her himself, he literally says it. So all we got in exchange was Death Phantom offing Demande himself rather than the powerful message that was supposed to be conveyed of Usagi killing her rapist alongside her consensual lover who she chose herself. It was yet another example of Crystal's stupid, useless and meaningless changes and they would've been better off just sticking to the manga.

Love this! I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed Sailor Moon's stance against rape culture! Yet another reason why this is empowering to teenage girls! I agree that having Mamoru save her is...lesser, since it seems to reinforce the notion that raping women is bad because another man has already "claimed" her, some stupid chivalry crap, but it could also reinforce men also taking a stand to condemn their fellow men who reinforce rape culture and violence against women. But still, even if in-universe I'm glad he saved her, I'd still rather the version where Usagi saves herself as it's still ultimately more powerful! Rather than crossing my fingers and hoping for the right man to come to her rescue! I get what it was supposed to imply, still, but I really hate when men condemning misogyny is portrayed as them "saving women!!!!!" as if women even need their salvation! It just reinforces the same misogyny that's supposed to be condemned in that women are still completely at the mercy of men. In a way, it's worse than nobody coming to women's rescue at all. Men can and should support, women, of course, but not by thinking of themselves as gallant knights on white horses--no thanks, we're capable of saving ourselves!

*You can probably guess that I came here from your post on what Sailor Moon means for women, lololol, so thanks for that!*

 

[Princess Sugar Lily]

I agree with you instead of the whole toxic masculinity, and rape culture crud.Either than that I agree.People need to understand they were not the same characters.

*Other

Also, what do you mean by toxic masculinity and rape culture "crud". Not agreeing is one thing, but that's hella rude. If that's what someone else took from it, and if that's the message the author intended to send(Death of the Author is often pulled regarding these things and it always rubs me the wrong way!), then who are you to tell them it's stupid of them to think otherwise? Like--it's kind of the point of his character, as Tsundereshipper said, so I don't how you missed that or could even begin to call it "crud". Maybe try to see her point before dismissing it as shallow?

 

[ChampionOfNuggets]

Nothing about Demande really comments on toxic masculinity and rape culture. Being an attempted rapist doesn’t make him a commentary on rape culture. He doesn’t engage in hypermasculine behavior or refuse to display any emotion other than anger. He doesn’t display any overt misogyny or blame Serenity for his lust. He’s just an evil pretty boy who wants the main heroine because villain cliche and because he’s evil consent doesn’t matter

Rubeus in the 90s anime is a lot closer to being a commentary on toxic masculinity and even then not really.

 

[Princess Sugar Lily]

Buy the way are we now sure that it’s Prince Demande and not Diamond ?

I still don’t get why he should be the only one not to clearly have a “jewels/mineral” name. But maybe Naoko wanted to play with both words as “Demande” in French means “Request/ asking for” (which he kind of doing with his Neo Queen’s obsession) and sounds also like “Diamond”.

I see it now!

Heheh, personally, I think Demande sounds better. Diamond sounds like a pretty crappy DiC dub translation, at least, in my opinion. I guess not having an obviously jewel or mineral name makes him...unique, I guess? Odd Name Out is a pretty common trope in media. Then again, with the double meaning you provided, it's actually better off that he's not outright named "Diamond". Errrm...

 

[Princess Sugar Lily]

Nothing about Demande really comments on toxic masculinity and rape culture. Being an attempted rapist doesn’t make him a commentary on rape culture. He doesn’t engage in hypermasculine behavior or refuse to display any emotion other than anger. He doesn’t display any overt misogyny or blame Serenity for his lust. He’s just an evil pretty boy who wants the main heroine because villain cliche and because he’s evil consent doesn’t matter

Rubeus in the 90s anime is a lot closer to being a commentary on toxic masculinity and even then not really.

He doesn't have to tick all the boxes to be an enforcer or commentary on a given subject. I feel like you're looking at this too narrowly. There are many ways someone can reinforce rape culture. Merely by trying to claim a powerful woman as his own and being rebuked for it by the narrative and the woman in question in the context of a work that's explicitly meant to be read as feminist is enough for the scene to be read as a commentary on rape culture in my book, don't you think? And there's no one look for misogyny and rape culture, just like the stereotypical rapist who wears nothing but a trench coat and a fedora and pounces on the vulnerable young girl from out of the bushes isn't always reality either. I think it would actually be good to show that any sort of man, whether he's masculine, feminine, aggressive, suave, or whatever, can enact and be affected by toxic masculinity rape culture, rather than sticking to the box of being a burly manly gorilla who punches through walls through his hairy, testosterone-fueled fist. Even if he doesn't fit the exact box, that doesn't matter insomuch as his actual actions. By expecting and demanding a woman to be his because his penis says so and man always gets what man wants and everything he wants--including love--can be obtained through force, he is practicing toxic masculinity. By casting his actions in a horrific light(even if he IS a villain) and having Sailor Moon explain to him that love cannot be obtained through force and that doing so won't make him claim her heart, the narrative rebukes not only him, but rape culture in general. Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[MsImagination]

*Other

Also, what do you mean by toxic masculinity and rape culture "crud". Not agreeing is one thing, but that's hella rude. If that's what someone else took from it, and if that's the message the author intended to send(Death of the Author is often pulled regarding these things and it always rubs me the wrong way!), then who are you to tell them it's stupid of them to think otherwise? Like--it's kind of the point of his character, as Tsundereshipper said, so I don't how you missed that or could even begin to call it "crud". Maybe try to see her point before dismissing it as shallow?

I agreed with most of her of her point.I just did not agree with some of it.I do not believe rape culture is a thing nor do I agree with the term toxic masculinity.I also doubt that Naoko was trying to purposely make him represent that anyway.

 

[SILVER]

Im so tired of 90s fans wanting Crystal to be the 90s anime

 

[Tsundereshipper]

Nothing about Demande really comments on toxic masculinity and rape culture. Being an attempted rapist doesn’t make him a commentary on rape culture. He doesn’t engage in hypermasculine behavior or refuse to display any emotion other than anger. He doesn’t display any overt misogyny or blame Serenity for his lust. He’s just an evil pretty boy who wants the main heroine because villain cliche and because he’s evil consent doesn’t matter

Rubeus in the 90s anime is a lot closer to being a commentary on toxic masculinity and even then not really.

Ehh… I’d say your interpretation more closely aligns with 90’s anime and Myu Demande, Manga/Crystal Demande is definitely toxically masculine, what other emotions does he display besides anger, dominance/arrogance and pride? He’s even willing to mercy kill his own brother without a second thought and responds to that murder with sheer outright anger and insanity (because Naoko didn’t bother to write 3-dimensional villains outside of Ace, Beryl, the Twin Senshi, and Galaxia) unlike 90’s Demande who actually cried over Saphir and even used the most serious declaration of love imaginable in the Japanese language toward Sailor Moon “aishteru” right when he was dying. Manga/Crystal Demande wasn’t even in love with NQS/Usagi, he was attracted to her power and saw her as the spoils of war he could rape into submission before killing her himself.

Moreover it isn’t just his lust for NQS that makes him toxically masculine but his whole philosophy towards life in general. He believes in the Darwinian logic that might makes right and that war and violence should continue to rage on because peace is for weaklings, he strangles a literal child to death and has no qualms killing whoever happens to be on the wrong end of his temper, I’d say that’s plenty proof of his toxic masculinity to me.

You’re correct though that when it comes to the 90’s anime Rubeus is easily the Clan’s most toxically masculine member, I’ll give you that.

 

[FloraKiraraHime]

Im so tired of 90s fans wanting Crystal to be the 90s anime

Oh, me too.

 

[Memelord_Yoshi]

Only if Naoko decided to ship the sisters and sailors then make it similar to the Shittenou X Senshi image.

But since this is Crystal they'll only be resurrected and redeemed then killed again with an insta-kill death ray before moving on to the next arc.

 

[SILVER]

Only if Naoko decided to ship the sisters and sailors then make it similar to the Shittenou X Senshi image.

But since this is Crystal they'll only be resurrected and redeemed then killed again with an insta-kill death ray before moving on to the next arc.

And that's how it should be

 

[MsImagination]

Oh, me too.

Even if crystal had filler and stretch the plot.I doubt they would redeem the sisters anyway.

 

[yaya_ikuto]

in the time the manga was written the concept toxic masculinity didn't exist, i think she portraited all the bad things of a bad person, not that, and yes i think the characters in the manga and 90s anime are too different so i wouldn't like they be redeemed, i feel sailor moon saving herself from the villains show how powerful she was , no looking at the strange philosophy some now have

 

[Princess Sugar Lily]

I agreed with most of her of her point.I just did not agree with some of it.I do not believe rape culture is a thing nor do I agree with the term toxic masculinity.I also doubt that Naoko was trying to purposely make him represent that anyway.

I don't want to get into a debate on politics, but yeah, rape culture is a thing and to deny it is incredibly problematic. It's a societal epidemic that harms women and girls daily, and if it didn't exist women wouldn't be asked "what were you wearing?" when complaining about getting raped or harassed; girls wouldn't be told to change into something less revealing that won't "distract" the boys; we wouldn't have "boys will be boys" as an excuse for misogynistic behavior(also a part of toxic masculinity) and we certainly wouldn't have women having to take precautions to make sure we don't get raped because we're not only told that it's OUR fault and that WE'RE sexual objects who need to guard ourselves from those "ravenous" wolf-like men, but that it's an imperative in every girl's life to eventually be raped and/or sexually assaulted/harassed/exploited somehow. Women live in fear of men and of being raped every day. It's why when we go to parties we have to watch our and each others' drinks just in case they might get spiked, it's why we're afraid to go out at night, it's why some of us are afraid to wear certain clothes in case we get catcalled or molested, it's why we go to the bathroom in groups, it's why girls are told to "cover up" and close their legs whenever a man comes over, when in fact that man shouldn't be coming over at all. So to deny something so impactful and dangerous that literally infringes on women's safety, happiness, and bodily autonomy exists is incredibly disrespectful.

Toxic masculinity is also a part of this. Rape culture comes from toxic masculinity, which is the notion that a man must be perfectly strong, tough, capable, and never let a woman take dominion over him, which also happens to include staying far away from feminine things like the plague, because women are lesser and things associated with them are bad and pointless, and that a man who gets raped by a woman is a laughingstock because he should have been strong enough to fight off a mere weak little woman like her! Worst case scenario is that he is "emasculated" by a woman raping him, or a woman paying the bills, or a woman being stronger than him, because it's a reversal of the social norm that men should be stronger than or dominant over women and put them in their place, as well as the notion that the woman's role is lesser. Femininity is a punishment and a form of humiliation for men. The worst thing that can happen to a man in a patriarchal society is being reduced to a woman's role because it's just taken for granted that women are lesser. Even guys refusing to be seen holding their girlfriends' purses is emblematic of toxic masculinity and an inherent devaluement of femininity. Why is it so embarrassing to be seen holding it? Because it's feminine and for women, that's why, and our society regards women as having lower status! Toxic masculinity and rape culture both harm men in some ways, but they ultimately harm women by assuming that their role is lesser and that they must always be in danger, which is their fault because men can do no wrong.

You can Google it for yourself to see that it IS real, and if you wish to discuss this with me further, feel free to reach out to me privately instead of on this thread which is dedicated to something different.

 

[MsImagination]

If you don't want to debate politics.

I don't want to get into a debate on politics, but yeah, rape culture is a thing and to deny it is incredibly problematic. It's a societal epidemic that harms women and girls daily, and if it didn't exist women wouldn't be asked "what were you wearing?" when complaining about getting raped or harassed; girls wouldn't be told to change into something less revealing that won't "distract" the boys; we wouldn't have "boys will be boys" as an excuse for misogynistic behavior(also a part of toxic masculinity) and we certainly wouldn't have women having to take precautions to make sure we don't get raped because we're not only told that it's OUR fault and that WE'RE sexual objects who need to guard ourselves from those "ravenous" wolf-like men, but that it's an imperative in every girl's life to eventually be raped and/or sexually assaulted/harassed/exploited somehow. Women live in fear of men and of being raped every day. It's why when we go to parties we have to watch our and each others' drinks just in case they might get spiked, it's why we're afraid to go out at night, it's why some of us are afraid to wear certain clothes in case we get catcalled or molested, it's why we go to the bathroom in groups, it's why girls are told to "cover up" and close their legs whenever a man comes over, when in fact that man shouldn't be coming over at all. So to deny something so impactful and dangerous that literally infringes on women's safety, happiness, and bodily autonomy exists is incredibly disrespectful.

Toxic masculinity is also a part of this. Rape culture comes from toxic masculinity, which is the notion that a man must be perfectly strong, tough, capable, and never let a woman take dominion over him, which also happens to include staying far away from feminine things like the plague, because women are lesser and things associated with them are bad and pointless, and that a man who gets raped by a woman is a laughingstock because he should have been strong enough to fight off a mere weak little woman like her! Worst case scenario is that he is "emasculated" by a woman raping him, or a woman paying the bills, or a woman being stronger than him, because it's a reversal of the social norm that men should be stronger than or dominant over women and put them in their place, as well as the notion that the woman's role is lesser. Femininity is a punishment and a form of humiliation for men. The worst thing that can happen to a man in a patriarchal society is being reduced to a woman's role because it's just taken for granted that women are lesser. Even guys refusing to be seen holding their girlfriends' purses is emblematic of toxic masculinity and an inherent devaluement of femininity. Why is it so embarrassing to be seen holding it? Because it's feminine and for women, that's why, and our society regards women as having lower status! Toxic masculinity and rape culture both harm men in some ways, but they ultimately harm women by assuming that their role is lesser and that they must always be in danger, which is their fault because men can do no wrong.

You can Google it for yourself to see that it IS real, and if you wish to discuss this with me further, feel free to reach out to me privately instead of on this thread which is dedicated to something different.

This whole paragraph just makes me laugh.I don't agree with these term and don't see this culture existing.Thanks for the offer though, and have a nice day.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

I think their redemption should be kept exclusive to the 90s anime. While I would have loved to have had Crystal extend each arc and give us more backstory, I believe the BMC worked best as an evil cult, brainwashed or not, they were monstrous in the manga.
If anything, I'd want extra scenes to reveal more of how bad they are.
I've seen Usagi get criticized for wiping out the sisters without a thought, but they just found the body of a burned nun after a string of deaths by fire and here we see Koan attacking her friends with fire, then trapping Mars in a painful fire that would have probably burned her to ash if she wasn't so closely linked to fire herself. Koan was a monster and it was a good setup for showing us how evil the clan was. Her death was warranted.
Even if the sisters had each received an extra episode, I would have preferred they be shown committing more horrible deeds before the showdowns.

I love the 90s anime, I prefer it in almost every way to Crystal....but I do not want Crystal to just copy ideas that were 90s anime exclusive that was never what this series was. People too often call it a remake and that's not what it is. The first anime was hardly an adaptation of the manga and was more its own thing taking cues and some plots and characters from the manga. Crystal is a (heavily flawed)manga adaptation.

While the first season wrecked the Four Kings with its deviation, the worst part of season 2 was probably when it deviated from the plot with Demande just how the most cringy parts of season 3 were the deviations (though these were far from the worst offenders).

The one change I think I am okay with is the change to Hawk's Eye in Eternal. It didn't significantly alter the plot and was a surprise. (maybe I'm being partial because I tear up every time he says his dream is over, but Mako should go chase her own dreams.)
It was only weakened because Fish Eye and Tiger's Eye were so one-dimensional, they could have altered that with a line of dialogue each:
Fish Eye: "I understand a lonely girl like you, not accepted, drowning in her duties..." something like that.

Now, if we ever get a new adaptation that gives each arc time to breathe, redemptions might be possible for the sisters, I just don't think they are necessary. In the anime we see the sisters argue and change and deal with Rubeus' manipulations.
In the manga, they were eager to go kill for him and I don't think they were manipulated at all. Even if they were not privy to all of Wiseman's plots, they were 100% aware of the death they caused, and that's on them.

 

[Slowpokeking]

He doesn't have to tick all the boxes to be an enforcer or commentary on a given subject. I feel like you're looking at this too narrowly. There are many ways someone can reinforce rape culture. Merely by trying to claim a powerful woman as his own and being rebuked for it by the narrative and the woman in question in the context of a work that's explicitly meant to be read as feminist is enough for the scene to be read as a commentary on rape culture in my book, don't you think? And there's no one look for misogyny and rape culture, just like the stereotypical rapist who wears nothing but a trench coat and a fedora and pounces on the vulnerable young girl from out of the bushes isn't always reality either. I think it would actually be good to show that any sort of man, whether he's masculine, feminine, aggressive, suave, or whatever, can enact and be affected by toxic masculinity rape culture, rather than sticking to the box of being a burly manly gorilla who punches through walls through his hairy, testosterone-fueled fist. Even if he doesn't fit the exact box, that doesn't matter insomuch as his actual actions. By expecting and demanding a woman to be his because his penis says so and man always gets what man wants and everything he wants--including love--can be obtained through force, he is practicing toxic masculinity. By casting his actions in a horrific light(even if he IS a villain) and having Sailor Moon explain to him that love cannot be obtained through force and that doing so won't make him claim her heart, the narrative rebukes not only him, but rape culture in general. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I don't think Demande's obsession is just sexual, or not even mainly sexual. He mostly cared for his pride which is why he wanted to conquer NQS but deep down he knew what he did was monstrous.

Other than that, I don't think he got much to do with toxic masculinity, BMC has 5(6 if we plus Black Lady) female members. He didn't seem to treat any of them unequally or have sexual interest on them at all. He even cared about his fellows when talked about it.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

I'm not calling anyone out or pointing fingers and trust me, I am one of the worst sometimes for derailing threads, but I really think we should get this one back on topic before it gets shut down by the mods, it's starting to feel just slightly hostile and controversial.

It is probably best to continue anything like this in private or in a specific thread if it's allowed, that way people who don't want to read or participate in discussions like that can avoid it.
It can be offputting or even a bit of a shock to come into a thread about one thing and see that it has turned into a discussion on something so sensitive, even if the discussion itself isn't meant to be hostile, I think we can all agree it should be saved for its own place.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on anyone or be mean, so I hope you guys don't think that.
I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

just how the most cringy parts of season 3 were the deviations

Wait, in what ways did season 3 deviate? I always thought that season and the Eternal movies have been the most faithful to the Manga of Crystal so far.

Other than that, I don't think he got much to do with toxic masculinity, BMC has 5(6 if we plus Black Lady) female members. He didn't seem to treat any of them unequally or have sexual interest on them at all. He even cared about his fellows when talked about it.

As I once told you before, you don’t have to be an outright sexist to be considered toxically masculine. Even most men (and women! Toxic Masculinity isn’t just exclusive to men either) in real life with a toxically masculine attitude don’t go around thinking women shouldn’t be in the workforce or refuse to ever work with them - Toxic Masculinity mostly manifests in wanting to dominate, ignoring one’s right to consent, thinking that showing soft emotions makes you “weak,” and glorifying violence, all traits Manga/Crystal Demande definitely presents.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

Wait, in what ways did season 3 deviate? I always thought that season and the Eternal movies have been the most faithful to the Manga of Crystal so far.



.

In season 3 it was little, subtle things, taking away daimon forms for the Witches 5, showing them all floating round together. Nothing that altered the plot, just stuff like that.