Did ppl get wrong with Beryl's character?

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Lady Pen

Luna Nova
Mar 12, 2021
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#41
Easy guys ::toast: , neither of the Beryls really stands out for being a great character. It's true that in the Anime we can hardly see Beryl's story. I'd even say the staff gave Beryl's past to the yokai of the lake from episode 40. The Beryl from the manga is nothing more than the typical girl who loses to the protagonist for trying to get the boy she's in love with, quite common of the old shojo. The only difference is that she's the antagonist, is a witch and that she's got an evil being and an amazing control power on her side.
 
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#42
Easy guys ::toast: , neither of the Beryls really stands out for being a great character. It's true that in the Anime we can hardly see Beryl's story. I'd even say the staff gave Beryl's past to the yokai of the lake from episode 40. The Beryl from the manga is nothing more than the typical girl who loses to the protagonist for trying to get the boy she's in love with, quite common of the old shojo. The only difference is that she's the antagonist, is a witch and that she's got an evil being and an amazing control power on her side.
It depends on how we judge them. Not every villain have to be tragic to be awesome.

Anime Beryl was very successful as a "big bad" role. She was evil, cruel towards her own generals but also gave them chances and don't kill them without reason. Metallia was more like a tool instead of a character, even the ending got to use her merge with Metallia to bring up the fight.

Manga Beryl was also ambitious and ruthless, but because the limited screen time and she got killed too early, as a villain she didn't full expand her potential, especially that she did consider to betray Metallia as well but we didn't see enough. Again in the manga Beryl also went 99% for power, 1% to have the boy as a trophy. I'm not sure why so many ppl misread this ambitious woman into some sympathetic girl.

Another Story actually expanded her past as a well respected sage and was trying to resist the darkness, but she didn't act much different afterwards.

I don't really think the love towards Endymion was necessary, both versions didn't execute it well. The problem, I think is that there was no relationship or any kind of special reason given other than "i want you as my trophy". Beryl's past was also not shown much. It could have been well written if she was given more focus though.
 
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Apr 1, 2020
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#43
That's how I would have handled their relationship if I want to expand it.

Beryl was a powerful sage, but at first she was feared by ppl because of her power. It also turned her into a cold being. Ppl wanted to get rid of her and started a group attack. She was angry and refuse to step back.

Endymion came and stopped the nonsense fight, showed her kindness and brought her to the king. She started to use her power to help the Golden Kingdom. But Endymion only treated her as a friend, not a lover.

When Princess Serenity showed up, Endymion fell in love with her, Beryl felt sad, went away to her own castle, and later got corrupted by the dark force.

This should make her much more sympathetic, but it could overshadow Princess Serenity since she was quite bland unlike Usagi.
 
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Tsundereshipper

Lumen Cinererum
Jun 17, 2019
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#44
No it is a proposal made out of love. Even when she sees Tuxedo Mask's face when his mask is knocked off by Zoisite she immediately recognizes him and wishes to do anything to bring him to her even killing Zoisite for almost killing him.
I always interpreted that to be Beryl just having zero tolerance for going against orders, plus Endymion was a useful pawn in her fight against Princess, it never read as outright love to me.

yeah that was another scene meant to foreshadow Nephrite's past as Endymion's Shitennou when they briefly sense one another.
I'm sad that they never went anywhere with this, why do you think they decided to drop this plot point in the 90's anime and have it only be confined to supplemental material?

She definitely loved him and that was the reason for her turning to evil. Even that story of the Lake Monster was meant to be a parallel to Beryl becoming a monster due to Prince Endymion not requiting her love and his love for a Princess from the Heavens.
I'd even say the staff gave Beryl's past to the yokai of the lake from episode 40.
Everyone keeps mentioning this and I admit the thought has crossed my mind as well but if it was meant to be a reference/parallel why are Beryl's feelings for Endymion herself never mentioned? Why is there no mention on how she used to be good but just corrupted by jealousy? No attempt from Sailor Moon to heal her? It's weird, you'd think if that Yokai was meant to be a reference to Beryl, they would try to directly compare the two in some way by mentioning Beryl's backstory or at least a snippet, but they don't She's just said to be sorceress who made a pact with Metallia in order to take over the Earth and that's it. I wonder if her backstory was yet another plot point that got left on the cutting room floor much like the Shittenou being Endymion's guardians and that's why they had that Lake episode but it was ultimately scrapped in the end? What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall during the 90's anime production at Toei and see what went on behind the scenes, SuperS & Stars in particular are big messes.


I don't really think the love towards Endymion was necessary, both versions didn't execute it well. The problem, I think is that there was no relationship or any kind of special reason given other than "i want you as my trophy".
I mean, you could say the same for Demande. In the manga he also had no wanted NQS for no other reason rather than "just a trophy." Beryl at least seemed to show some genuine emotion in that one flashback scene, whereas Demande just wanted to break Usagi.

Beryl's past was also not shown much. It could have been well written if she was given more focus though.
At least she had some semblance of a backstory in the manga, whereas in the 90's anime she had absolutely none besides "evil sorceress go BRRR."

This should make her much more sympathetic, but it could overshadow Princess Serenity since she was quite bland unlike Usagi.
Princess Serenity was only bland in the 90's anime, in the manga she was shown to be just like Usagi.
 
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#45
I mean, you could say the same for Demande. In the manga he also had no wanted NQS for no other reason rather than "just a trophy." Beryl at least seemed to show some genuine emotion in that one flashback scene, whereas Demande just wanted to break Usagi.
Yes, Demande never truly loved NQS as a person, the desire to conquer her was mostly about he wanted to prove that he was right and his doing was not terrible, but it was the truth he wanted to dodge from.

But his emotion was much better explored in the way, in the middle he was indeed touched by Sailor Moon's good doing. As well as his feeling towards his followers, he indeed treated them as his men and showed remorse when he had to kill his brother. Unlike Beryl, everyone to her was just a tool, including Metallia.

Demande's betrayal against the big bad was also shown, there was emotion, action and tension. Unlike Beryl just said that she wanted to rule the world but nothing else.

Overall, manga Demande was much better handled as a villain than Beryl. It's kinda opposite, he had everything built right other than the rushed ending. Beryl's ending flashback brought her up and caused misunderstanding.

At least she had some semblance of a backstory in the manga, whereas in the 90's anime she had absolutely none besides "evil sorceress go BRRR."
All her backstory was about how she waited for Metallia to execute her plan of ambition. That's pretty much the same with "evil Sorceress go BRRR."

The manga actually made her worse because it made clear that she willingly sold her soul to Metallia in exchange for power. The anime was not clear about that.

She even removed Metallia's seal when she was reincarnated(looks like ordinary person) in the manga, unlike in the anime she was not reincarnated but sealed together as the demon queen, which left her no way back.

This is why I don't understand why ppl thought she was different or a better person in the manga. Because she had a flashback in the end and the last word was that she wanted to GRASP him as her trophy, and her human form was shown?



Princess Serenity was only bland in the 90's anime, in the manga she was shown to be just like Usagi.
And that is bland as well, we wanted to see someone who was different but also has soul.
 

Tsundereshipper

Lumen Cinererum
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#46
As well as his feeling towards his followers, he indeed treated them as his men and showed remorse when he had to kill his brother. Unlike Beryl, everyone to her was just a tool, including Metallia.
No you're thinking of the 90's anime for Demande again, Manga!Demande was just like Beryl in having no feelings for his followers and treating them only like pawns. I vaguely remember Crystal adding one little comment on how he regretted the destruction of his comrades Rubeus & Esmeraude, but that's Crystal which did soften him to a degree, in the manga he never gave a hoot and had no hesitation in killing off Saphir for instance.


All her backstory was about how she waited for Metallia to execute her plan of ambition. That's pretty much the same with "evil Sorceress go BRRR."

The manga actually made her worse because it made clear that she willingly sold her soul to Metallia in exchange for power. The anime was not clear about that.

She even removed Metallia's seal when she was reincarnated(looks like ordinary person) in the manga, unlike in the anime she was not reincarnated but sealed together as the demon queen, which left her no way back.
But the manga also showed how she was originally suspicious of the Moon and thought they were spying on the Earth so she helped stir up Anti-Moon Propoganda and discrimination, and at least we were actually told that she was originally reborn as a human in the manga was once a researcher that happened to rediscover Metallia, in the 90's anime we never get any of that. (Why tf does Beryl have her base in the North Pole in the 90's anime anyways? How'd she even meet Metallia? Was she ever reborn as a regular human like the others or did she just break free of her seal? We don't know.) For all we know 90's Beryl could just be from some Negaverse dimension that appeared out of nowhere one day like the old Dub said.


And that is bland as well, we wanted to see someone who was different but also has soul.
Are you saying it's bland if their previous lives personalities are the same as their current ones?
 
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#47
No you're thinking of the 90's anime for Demande again, Manga!Demande was just like Beryl in having no feelings for his followers and treating them only like pawns. I vaguely remember Crystal adding one little comment on how he regretted the destruction of his comrades Rubeus & Esmeraude, but that's Crystal which did soften him to a degree, in the 90's anime he never gave a hoot and had no hesitation in killing off Saphir for instance.
No, it was in the manga as well. You can see the emotion here.








But the manga also showed how she was originally suspicious of the Moon and thought they were spying on the Earth so she helped stir up Anti-Moon Propoganda and discrimination, and at least we were actually told that she was originally reborn as a human in the manga was once a researcher that happened to rediscover Metallia, in the 90's anime we never get any of that. (Why tf does Beryl have her base in the North Pole in the 90's anime anyways? How'd she even meet Metallia? Was she ever reborn as a regular human like the others or did she just break free of her seal? We don't know.) For all we know 90's Beryl could just be from some Negaverse dimension that appeared out of nowhere one day like the old Dub said.
I don't remember these.

Her background was all about how evil she was. Was her character more complete than the anime? Maybe. Was she more sympathetic and more human? No.

In the flashback it was clear that she was sealed away, not reincarnated. So that castle was mostly her own castle before the ancient invasion.



Are you saying it's bland if their previous lives personalities are the same as their current ones?
Yes, there should be some differences.
 

Tsundereshipper

Lumen Cinererum
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#48
No, it was in the manga as well. You can see the emotion here.










I don't remember these.

Her background was all about how evil she was. Was her character more complete than the anime? Maybe. Was she more sympathetic and more human? No.

In the flashback it was clear that she was sealed away, not reincarnated. So that castle was mostly her own castle before the ancient invasion.
Oh my mistake then, I think I was just so taken aback by how little regard he showed Saphir on that page that I forgot the part where he mentions Rubeus & Esmeraude. That really seems in conflict with how he acts towards Saphir here though, like he's showing such remorse/regret over Rubeus & Esmeraude yet shows no hesitation in killing off his brother at a moment's notice? It's weird. Probably just another example of Naoko's sloppy characterization for her villains (barring a few exceptions)

Well I suppose there's at least one good thing to say about Manga!Demande... At least he's loyal?

As for Manga! Beryl stirring up Anti-Moon propoganda, these are the pages I'm talking about:

 
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#49
Oh my mistake then, I think I was just so taken aback by how little regard he showed Saphir on that page that I forgot the part where he mentions Rubeus & Esmeraude. That really seems in conflict with how he acts towards Saphir here though, like he's showing such remorse/regret over Rubeus & Esmeraude yet shows no hesitation in killing off his brother at a moment's notice? It's weird. Probably just another example of Naoko's sloppy characterization for her villains (barring a few exceptions)
Saphir was brainwashed and he knew it. If he didn't take the chance, Wiseman could easily fireback using him as the hostage.

So he had to do it as soon as possible, but you can see the impact there, and that's why he wanted to destroy everything all together later.




Well I suppose there's at least one good thing to say about Manga!Demande... At least he's loyal?
He was evil, sure. But he was also shown as a human being along with struggle deep down, which is why I feel that the ending was too rushed.

It's also why he felt like a character among the SM villains.

As for Beryl, she got some interesting concepts, but was not handled/expanded well since it was the first chapter. Again I'm not saying she should be handled that way. But she was like that in the manga.


As for Manga! Beryl stirring up Anti-Moon propoganda, these are the pages I'm talking about:

None of them even knew about her true intention, she was also brainwashing them.

Also to make clear. Princess Serenity and Usagi are different beings. Usagi was a teenage girl from ordinary family so ppl could accept her being goofy, and we do see her growth later. She also saved the world many times.

Princess Serenity was the princess of the Moon Kingdom, but we don't see her doing anything good for her kingdom when the crisis happened. She even committed suicide after her lover died. That makes her not very likeable, which is why we need her to be expanded if Beryl was to be written well.
 

Tsundereshipper

Lumen Cinererum
Jun 17, 2019
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#50
Saphir was brainwashed and he knew it. If he didn't take the chance, Wiseman could easily fireback using him as the hostage.

So he had to do it as soon as possible, but you can see the impact there, and that's why he wanted to destroy everything all together later.

He was evil, sure. But he was also shown as a human being along with struggle deep down, which is why I feel that the ending was too rushed.

It's also why he felt like a character among the SM villains.
I thought he only went crazy not because he had to kill Saphir but because he realized Wiseman had conned him and he had lost everything, if Saphir's death really effected him as much as it had, why didn't he cry over him like in the 90's anime or get at all sad?


None of them even knew about her true intention, she was also brainwashing them.
Right, but that page still shows that she was promoting Anti-Moon propaganda as part of her agenda, doesn't matter if they knew the real reason behind it or not and in that specific picture the Shittenou don't look completely brainwashed yet to me, she obviously got to them first with words before actually fully brainwashing them.

Also to make clear. Princess Serenity and Usagi are different beings. Usagi was a teenage girl from ordinary family so ppl could accept her being goofy, and we do see her growth later. She also saved the world many times. Princess Serenity was the princess of the Moon Kingdom, but we don't see her doing anything good for her kingdom when the crisis happened. She even committed suicide after her lover died. That makes her not very likeable, which is why we need her to be expanded if Beryl was to be written well.
Princess Serenity was a naive, spoiled Princess who never got to mature (though even then the relations with the Earth and handling of Metallia laid more on Queen Serenity's shoulders more than anyone) Usagi was too but the difference is she did mature by becoming Sailor Moon.
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#51
I thought he only went crazy not because he had to kill Saphir but because he realized Wiseman had conned him and he had lost everything, if Saphir's death really effected him as much as it had, why didn't he cry over him like in the 90's anime or get at all sad?
He lost everything because he cared about them. Otherwise he would not care because he got the greatest power. Anything else would be better than destroying everything.

Because they are different characters and in different situation.

Anime Demande was a much better person, much less evil and his brother died to warn him, of course he was shocked. Manga Demande was a darker character, and the situation didn't allow him to cry much.



Right, but that page still shows that she was promoting Anti-Moon propaganda as part of her agenda, doesn't matter if they knew the real reason behind it or not and in that specific picture the Shittenou don't look completely brainwashed yet to me, she obviously got to them first with words before actually fully brainwashing them.
Yeah, I'm just saying she is very selfish and power hungry, her ppl and kingdom was all tools to her.


Princess Serenity was a naive, spoiled Princess who never got to mature (though even then the relations with the Earth and handling of Metallia laid more on Queen Serenity's shoulders more than anyone) Usagi was too but the difference is she did mature by becoming Sailor Moon.
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Exactly, so if you want to write Beryl into a very sympathetic and lovely woman who fell from grace, you need to expand Serenity as well otherwise ppl would all stand on Beryl's side when they read the manga, it's not a good thing and would damage Usagi/Mamoru relationship as well.
 

Rika-Chicchi

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#52
If I wrote the story, I'd make both sides have their respective rights & wrongs, & neither would really be "righter" or "wronger" overall, but I guess that'd be too complicated to be comprehended by lil kids, even tho it's more reflective of realities. lol
 
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#53
If I wrote the story, I'd make both sides have their respective rights & wrongs, & neither would really be "righter" or "wronger" overall, but I guess that'd be too complicated to be comprehended by lil kids, even tho it's more reflective of realities. lol
For Sailor Moon, it would be the best to stay at anime BMC's level, going too far would damage the heroes' reputation.
 

Rika-Chicchi

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#54
If I wrote the story, I'd make both sides have their respective rights & wrongs, & neither would really be "righter" or "wronger" overall, but I guess that'd be too complicated to be comprehended by lil kids, even tho it's more reflective of realities. lol
For Sailor Moon, it would be the best to stay at anime BMC's level, going too far would damage the heroes' reputation.
Yeah, my version would have neither real heroes nor real villains. lol
 

Tsundereshipper

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#55
Exactly, so if you want to write Beryl into a very sympathetic and lovely woman who fell from grace, you need to expand Serenity as well otherwise ppl would all stand on Beryl's side when they read the manga, it's not a good thing and would damage Usagi/Mamoru relationship as well.
For Sailor Moon, it would be the best to stay at anime BMC's level, going too far would damage the heroes' reputation.
One could argue that Queen Serenity already comes off as morally ambiguous what with how paternalistic she was towards the Earth, forbidding contact while denying them a seat at the table of the Silver Millennium, so if you want you could really pin the blame all on her as the source of the Earth's resentment. Beryl stirred up controversy and used that resentment to her advantage but it wouldn't have worked very well if it wasn't already there.
 

Rika-Chicchi

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#56
One could argue that Queen Serenity already comes off as morally ambiguous what with how paternalistic she was towards the Earth, forbidding contact while denying them a seat at the table of the Silver Millennium, so if you want you could really pin the blame all on her as the source of the Earth's resentment. Beryl stirred up controversy and used that resentment to her advantage but it wouldn't have worked very well if it wasn't already there.
So the Queen had actually (albeit indirectly) created the tragedy of her daughter, & attempted to compensate for that in her later actions - I think the storyline should've emphasized & elaborated this more!
 

Tsundereshipper

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#57
So the Queen had actually (albeit indirectly) created the tragedy of her daughter, & attempted to compensate for that in her later actions - I think the storyline should've emphasized & elaborated this more!
Queen Serenity was the real villain depending on how you look at things, also enslaving the Royal Princesses/Senshi of the other planets solely to serve as tribute (coughmeat-shieldscough) to her daughter when they were only children. :lol:
 
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Rika-Chicchi

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#58
Queen Serenity was the real villain depending on how you look at things, also enslaving the Royal Princesses/Senshi of the other planets solely to serve as tribute (coughmeat-shieldscough) when they were only children. :lol:
And she could very well be an alien from outside the Solar System, an extra-solar invader. :ninja: