Do any of you dislike the old english dub?

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Swan Cat

Lumen Cinererum
Oct 31, 2016
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#1
I used to like the old but now that Viz is the new correct English dub I tend to stay away from the old dub. I guess one good thing about DIC and Cloverway it opened up the world of Sailor Moon and anime to English speaking fans.
 

SILVER

Aurorae Lunares
Jan 7, 2014
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#3
While it IS of its time, it hasn’t aged gracefully and the censorship really bogs down some amazing casting choices (Dic Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Moon). On the flip side it has voice actors who were bad (IMO, obvs) like the Outers and the inconsistency in the attack names/terminology just make it a sloppy piece of work.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#4
I don't see how the original dub's censorship bogs down the show anymore than the original Japanese version was bogged down by its own homophobia, heterosexism, fat-shaming, and sexual objectification of women (the things the dub's 'censorship' targeted).
 

blondibear_17

Lumen Cinererum
Mar 3, 2017
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#6
I could never dislike the original dub it's the version that is most precious to me. Even the things that seem cringy to a lot of people are the things I think are cute and endearing like the Sailor Moon says the crazy 90's slang and the 80's sounding pop music. I also think the VA performances were definitely superior to the current dub by a long shot. I mean most of the most unforgivable things they did because it wouldn't pass the censors so it's not necessarily their fault they had to do it that way either.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#8
MementoNepenthe said:
I don't see how the original dub's censorship bogs down the show anymore than the original Japanese version was bogged down by its own homophobia, heterosexism, fat-shaming, and sexual objectification of women (the things the dub's 'censorship' targeted).
Remember now changing flamboyant gay stereotypes into women is homophobia but portraying gay characters as every negative stereotype is progressive
 

Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#9
The original dub has a lot of issues but I still have a lot of respect and love for it for introducing me to Sailor Moon and anime as a whole. What's important to keep in mind is the DiC dub came out in a vastly different time period where Western society was a lot more homophobic than it is today. Anime was extremely niche back then and animation was still largely considered to be for little kids still. If Sailor Moon aired uncut on American TV back then, it likely would have been sued by censorship groups. Even in modern times, episodes 45 and 46 would be impossible to air uncut as a children's show on Western TV. If they tried marketing it only to hardcore otaku VHS collectors, Sailor Moon probably never would have caught on and it would have faded into obscurity. In many ways, the DiC dub was ahead of it's time compared to other Westernized anime dubs like Voltron and Robotech that would combine multiple shows into a single one to market it to Western audiences.

While severely flawed, the original dub maintained the spirit of the original and kept the basic plot and characters the same. In some ways, the DiC dub improved the original by toning down some of the troubling sexism of the original and some of the music cues I like better in the DiC dub. The dub cast is a bit of a mixed bag, but how "horrible" they are is a subjective value. Most anime dubs in general will have a few voice artists you won't care for as much as others, including the Viz dub. I thought the original dub cast did a good job with the material they had to work with and did a respectable job of giving their roles defining characteristics. As discussed in other threads, there are other foreign dubs of Sailor Moon that have far more severe edits and quality issues than the DiC version. Ultimately how one feels about any anime dub is entirely subjective opinion. Even if the DiC version isn't officially available, it is easy to find online to watch, the Japanese and Viz dubs are easily accessible through official sources, and there's a version of Sailor Moon to appeal to every type of fan. If there's a version you don't like, find the version that makes you happiest, but other versions might make other types of fan happy even if they don't appeal to you on a personal level.
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
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#10
MementoNepenthe said:
I don't see how the original dub's censorship bogs down the show anymore than the original Japanese version was bogged down by its own homophobia, heterosexism, fat-shaming, and sexual objectification of women (the things the dub's 'censorship' targeted).
Again I don't see any "sexual objectification" on the show. Basically this term seems to arise from certain feminists who ironically like misogynists adhered to the Madonna/Whore concept and for some reason think that men can't lust after women and respect them. Ironically they have no problems with women voicing their lust for men or gay men and women voicing their lust for the same gender but really have a negative view of "the male gaze." Me personally I love the male gaze I love when men find me sexually attractive. I try to be a wanton as I like and make Pomba Gira aka Lilith the Scarlet Woman as an example to follow.

That being said I don't think the show was very homophobic at all. There was really only one incidence of perceived homophobia on the show itself leaving the CD dramas aside what the dub censored was any depiction of homosexuality at all including positive and heroic homosexual characters.

That being said I find the voice actors and the script to be superior in the Viz dub. Characters sound in my opinion alot better and more dignified. Beryl for instance sounds sexy, strong, commanding and intimidating not like the old witch voice used in the DiC dub

LifeGaveMeLemons said:
MementoNepenthe said:
I don't see how the original dub's censorship bogs down the show anymore than the original Japanese version was bogged down by its own homophobia, heterosexism, fat-shaming, and sexual objectification of women (the things the dub's 'censorship' targeted).
Remember now changing flamboyant gay stereotypes into women is homophobia but portraying gay characters as every negative stereotype is progressive
First of all I don't think that any of the gay characters were "negative stereotypes." Yes the series had gay villains but it also had gay heroes and many of the villains were sympathetic.

Honestly I personally found modern SJW Marvel's portrayal of many gay characters as more offensive and stereotypical then Sailor Moon's.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#12
MariaTenebre said:
That being said I don't think the show was very homophobic at all. There was really only one incidence of perceived homophobia on the show itself
One can argue the very portrayals of Zoicite and Fish Eye were homophobic but I'll get to that.

leaving the CD dramas aside what the dub censored was any depiction of homosexuality at all including positive and heroic homosexual characters.
The dub was content to pretend homosexuals didn't exist the original went with stereotypes. Pick your poison. I'm honestly more forgiving of the dub because this was made in the Don't Ask Don't Tell Era. Even with gay marriage being legalized in the United States and Dadt being repealed it's still controversial too portray same sex attraction in kids media. There was no way in hell Dic/Cloverway was going to get away with it in the 90s

I'm less forgiving of the cousin thing if only because all they really had to do with refer to them as best friends and have the occasional Michelle has history with men (because there's no reason Michiru can't be bisexual or came out later) and you would have gotten the best of both worlds. Enough to appease Toonami censors and moral watchdogs but its still coded as a gay relationship. Instead you got cousins.

That being said I find the voice actors and the script to be superior in the Viz dub. Characters sound in my opinion alot better and more dignified. Beryl for instance sounds sexy, strong, commanding and intimidating not like the old witch voice used in the DiC dub
That's very subjective of course. I got used to the Viz dub but there's a lot of sameness that plagues the voice acting when so many characters sound the same. Often times I'm not sure if its Luna or Naru talking for example.

First of all I don't think that any of the gay characters were "negative stereotypes." Yes the series had gay villains but it also had gay heroes and many of the villains were sympathetic.
Zoicite who is so feminine looking in appearance all Optimum had to do was literally give him a female voice actress and female pronouns to make him a convincing if flat chested woman. Who appears with cherry blossoms and uses them as an attack and dies with cherry blossoms because he wanted to die beautifully all to signify how feminine he is. Kunzite himself isn't a negative stereotype but it does reinforce the stereotype that gay relationships like straight relationships need a man and a woman.

Fish Eye who again doesn't take much to be a convincing woman for the adapters because he's already girly enough who uses the "trap" stereotype. That feminine gay men all want to lure straight men into sex (or in this case steal their dream mirrors I suppose) by dressing up as a woman and the show falls into the idea that gay men and trans women are interchangeable.

But yes there is no negative gay stereotypes in Sailor Moon :|

Sailor Uranus and Neptune fair a lot better because the director seems to like lesbians better than gay men but there's still a clearly defined man (Haruka) of the relationship and the woman(Michiru). Not to mention they're the most fascist of the group.

Honestly I personally found modern SJW Marvel's portrayal of many gay characters as more offensive and stereotypical then Sailor Moon's.
I don't keep up with Marvel but what is stereotypical about their gay characters? I'm not being rhetorical I'm just curious.
 

Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#13
LifeGaveMeLemons said:
Sailor Uranus and Neptune fair a lot better because the director seems to like lesbians better than gay men but there's still a clearly defined man (Haruka) of the relationship and the woman(Michiru). Not to mention they're the most fascist of the group.
Ellen DeGeneres and Portia say hi.
 

blondibear_17

Lumen Cinererum
Mar 3, 2017
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#14
I wonder if it would be possible to see Sailor Moon airing on tv uncensored eventually? I mean it's really not as thought Toonami is actually interested in it but it could be. I never thought in my lifetime that we would see same-sex relationships depicted in shows aimed at Children. I thought the closest we would ever get was hints of relationships that were never explicitly stated but we are now getting real depictions of same sex relationships in Nickelodeon and Disney shows and the world didn't end.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#15
Toonami isn't interested in it as far as I am aware. Nicktoons or DisneyXD who are far more likely to air the Viz dub would demand things be altered for content concerns (Zoicite and Kunzite's relationship downplayed to be more brotherly, Fish Eye turned female and the episode exposing "her" chest left unaired, Michiru and Haruka's relationship downplayed any curse word replaced with a milder one like darn, the two part first series finale merged into a single episode like Dic but not as censored etc)
 

Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#16
Toonami expressed an interest in airing Sailor Moon Crystal when it came out, but Toonami can't air Sailor Moon because Hulu has exclusive streaming rights.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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skelenator-rainbow.tumblr.com
#17
LifeGaveMeLemons said:
Nicktoons or DisneyXD who are far more likely to air the Viz dub would demand things be altered for content concerns (Zoicite and Kunzite's relationship downplayed to be more brotherly, Fish Eye turned female and the episode exposing "her" chest left unaired, Michiru and Haruka's relationship downplayed any curse word replaced with a milder one like darn, the two part first series finale merged into a single episode like Dic but not as censored etc)
And as long as they demand those things, they won't ever get to air the redub. Charlene said they only want the redub aired on tv if it gets to be aired uncut, since they feel editing it (even lightly) goes against the whole purpose of doing an uncut redub.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#18
Just want to respond to some things:

1. When female monsters-of-the-day are placed in increasingly revealing clothing and have their breasts repeatedly emphasized, that's sexual objectification. When female characters are put in bubble baths with their cleavage on display, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are subjected to up-skirt shots, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are shown naked, whether featureless or not (as in the case of human!Luna having visible nipples during her transformation), that's sexual objectification. This is a series about young women meant to empower (or at least entertain) an audience of young, impressionable girls. It doesn't need nudity.

2. I find it interesting how some people are so quick to accuse the original dub of homophobia for straight-washing the anime's queer characters, yet completely fail to recognize that the anime did the same thing to the manga. The 90s anime completely erased Haruka's gender fluidity (a butch woman =/= a genderfluid person). The 90s anime made Tiger's Eye and Hawk's Eye straight and fully heteronormative. (Per Naoko's notes, all three members of the Amazon Trio are supposed to be effeminate, possibly gay? cross-dressers - which is problematic in and of itself and open to criticism - with Hawk's Eye being the only one to actually cross-dress in the manga. Yet the 90s anime deliberately chose to make Fish Eye the only one who cross-dressed, and who was feminine and gay, and one must wonder at what motivated that choice.) The 90s anime erased the Starlights' gender identities as well by having them physically change sex, and this was clearly done so that Seiya could be a love interest for Usagi while keeping her straight. You can also make arguments about the changes to Rei's character, her dynamic with Minako, and the dynamic of Chibiusa and Hotaru's relationship. (You could even make the case that in the manga, Haruka, Michiru, AND Setsuna are in a polyamorous relationship, and that the anime further erases Setsuna's queerness, though that's arguably a stretch.) [And it bears pointing out that Kunzite and Zoisite are a couple ONLY in the 90s anime, and one must wonder as to why the 90s anime staff made that creative choice and why no other version of Sailor Moon has repeated it.] So if you're going to come for the original dub for straight-washing, you'd better do the same for the Japanese original.

3. At the end of the day, the original dub presents us with a show that lacks explicitly queer characters (though I think some, like Fish Eye, are open to interpretation), but it also doesn't reinforce or promote heterosexism. When speaking generally about love/romance, the dub tends to speak in gender neutral language, whereas the Japanese version tends to speak in terms of boys and girls. And while the Japanese version may have queer characters, they are usually presented in highly stereotypical and problematic ways, and whatever positivity may lie in their inclusion is undercut by having the protagonists (who are meant to be the moral compass and role models of the show) FREQUENTLY make homophobic/heterosexist comments (as seen in the season one Memorial, the R movie, a few episodes of S, the S audio drama, and at least one episode of Sailor Stars). I'd rather watch a show devoid of queer characters AND heterosexism than one that inexplicably features both.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#19
MementoNepenthe said:
Just want to respond to some things:

1. When female monsters-of-the-day are placed in increasingly revealing clothing and have their breasts repeatedly emphasized, that's sexual objectification. When female characters are put in bubble baths with their cleavage on display, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are subjected to up-skirt shots, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are shown naked, whether featureless or not (as in the case of human!Luna having visible nipples during her transformation), that's sexual objectification. This is a series about young women meant to empower (or at least entertain) an audience of young, impressionable girls. It doesn't need nudity.
I mostly agree with all this although meh the up-skirt shots are just showing off the lower part of their leotards despite some of the more lecherous members of the fandom (like SMU) wanting to refer to them as panty shots.

2. I find it interesting how some people are so quick to accuse the original dub of homophobia for straight-washing the anime's queer characters, yet completely fail to recognize that the anime did the same thing to the manga. The 90s anime completely erased Haruka's gender fluidity (a butch woman =/= a genderfluid person). The 90s anime made Tiger's Eye and Hawk's Eye straight and fully heteronormative. (Per Naoko's notes, all three members of the Amazon Trio are supposed to be effeminate, possibly gay? cross-dressers - which is problematic in and of itself and open to criticism - with Hawk's Eye being the only one to actually cross-dress in the manga. Yet the 90s anime deliberately chose to make Fish Eye the only one who cross-dressed, and who was feminine and gay, and one must wonder at what motivated that choice.) The 90s anime erased the Starlights' gender identities as well by having them physically change sex, and this was clearly done so that Seiya could be a love interest for Usagi while keeping her straight. You can also make arguments about the changes to Rei's character, her dynamic with Minako, and the dynamic of Chibiusa and Hotaru's relationship. (You could even make the case that in the manga, Haruka, Michiru, AND Setsuna are in a polyamorous relationship, and that the anime further erases Setsuna's queerness, though that's arguably a stretch.) [And it bears pointing out that Kunzite and Zoisite are a couple ONLY in the 90s anime, and one must wonder as to why the 90s anime staff made that creative choice and why no other version of Sailor Moon has repeated it.] So if you're going to come for the original dub for straight-washing, you'd better do the same for the Japanese original.
Again I reiterate I'm far more forgiving of the dub just going ehhhh gay people don't exist at least not on Sailor Moon due to the culture over lolololol gay men are basically just women unless they're the MAN in the relationship? Right? Right?! You do bring up an interesting point about the straight washing from the manga to anime. The gender bending Starlights clearly exist for no reason other than so Usagi's romantic tension with Seiya is heterosexual (because the main character can't be bisexual) 2 of the 3 cross dressing gay codes members of the Amazon Trio are turned heterosexual rather or not this is justified so that the vast majority of victims of the day in the first half of SuperS are women to further the whole rape allegory present is up to you.

They suggest Mamoru is possibly bisexual in the R movie at least which I can't remember if the manga did other than that one boy in the Black Moon arc possibly having a boy crush on him. Granted since he's Usagi's love interest the anime wasn't going to go all the way there.

3. At the end of the day, the original dub presents us with a show that lacks explicitly queer characters (though I think some, like Fish Eye, are open to interpretation),
I honestly prefer the interpretation of Fish Eye as a trans female in the old dub. The biologically male chest as exposed in the uncut dub (and even to a point the edited for Toonami dub) kind of confirms this for me. The fact that Tiger Eye and Hawks Eye have no problem referring to her with her preferred pronouns is a respect thing.

but it also doesn't reinforce or promote heterosexism. When speaking generally about love/romance, the dub tends to speak in gender neutral language, whereas the Japanese version tends to speak in terms of boys and girls.
Meh there's that episode where in both English and Japanese Serena/Usagi wonders if a guy and girl can just be friends. But she's suppose to be naive so...

And while the Japanese version may have queer characters, they are usually presented in highly stereotypical and problematic ways, and whatever positivity may lie in their inclusion is undercut by having the protagonists (who are meant to be the moral compass and role models of the show) FREQUENTLY make homophobic/heterosexist comments (as seen in the season one Memorial, the R movie, a few episodes of S, the S audio drama, and at least one episode of Sailor Stars). I'd rather watch a show devoid of queer characters AND heterosexism than one that inexplicably features both.
Was homophobic comments made in the R movie? All I can think of is Ami thinking Mamoru prefers male company too which seems more like a closeted yaoi fangirls interpretation than being judgmental. Of course then Ami makes heterosexist comments in the S audio drama
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#20
The way the girls discuss the possibility of Fiore/other men being in love with Mamoru, and same-sex relationships in general (e.g. Minako talking about a couple "like that" at her school) is very cringey to me. It's not homophobic in the sense of regarding such people/relationships as gross or inferior or whatever, but to me it is homophobic in the sense of fetishizing gay people/couples. It's not a malicious thing, just a kind of ignorant thing. It probably wouldn't bother most people, but I tend to be sensitive about things like that ^_^'