Do any of you dislike the old english dub?

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Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#21
The 90s anime portraying LGBTQ characters differently isn't the same as the DiC dub censoring all LGBTQ characters because the 90s anime is a loose adaptation of the manga and the 90s anime changes the personalities of all the characters, including the straight characters. Manga relationships like Chibiusa and Hotaru and Setsuna's sexuality are all headcanon and fan interpretation and not something ever confirmed by Naoko. The 90s anime also added queerness to the characters that wasn't in the manga, like changing the Sailor Starlights to be gender fluid and expanding on Usagi's relationship with Seiya, who is a woman in her true form, which Naoko and fans of the manga expressed a negative reaction towards. At the end of the day, Sailor Moon is a 20 year old anime and manga created by cisgender straight people for other straight cisgender fans. Fans should approach the series with those limitations in mind. Regardless of any problematic portrayals of these characters, the LGBTQ characters of Sailor Moon have been an inspiration to many LGBTQ fans, and while the historical context of the DiC dub is understandable, I don't see how erasing all LGBTQ characters in Sailor Moon in the name of some progressive purity cleansing is somehow the best solution to these complex issues, and is a disservice to the LGBTQ fans that find inspiration from these characters.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#22
Neon Genesis said:
The 90s anime portraying LGBTQ characters differently isn't the same as the DiC dub censoring all LGBTQ characters because the 90s anime is a loose adaptation of the manga
I mean...the original dub is basically a loose adaptation of the anime when you get right down to it...

Manga relationships like Chibiusa and Hotaru and Setsuna's sexuality are all headcanon and fan interpretation and not something ever confirmed by Naoko.
I said that one *could* make arguments about that but that it *would* be *a stretch*. So... /shrug

The 90s anime also added queerness to the characters that wasn't in the manga, like changing the Sailor Starlights to be gender fluid and expanding on Usagi's relationship with Seiya, who is a woman in her true form, which Naoko and fans of the manga expressed a negative reaction towards.
Making Kunzite and Zoisite a couple would be a (problematic) example of the anime introducing queerness. The sex-changing (NOT gender fluid) Starlights? Not so much. After all, the anime doesn't get into whether or not Seiya's physically male body was just an Earth-exclusive thing or if that's how he/she is on Kinmoku as well, so whether or not anime!Seiya's "true form" is that of a woman is debatable. What's not debatable is the fact anime!Seiya was made a biological male in order to keep Usagi "it's better for girls to like boys" Tsukino straight.

Regardless of any problematic portrayals of these characters, the LGBTQ characters of Sailor Moon have been an inspiration to many LGBTQ fans, and while the historical context of the DiC dub is understandable, I don't see how erasing all LGBTQ characters in Sailor Moon in the name of some progressive purity cleansing is somehow the best solution to these complex issues, and is a disservice to the LGBTQ fans that find inspiration from these characters.
The DiC/CWi dub gets way more of a pass for straight-washing the series to comply with censorship demands than the Japanese version gets for deliberately introducing a lot of heterosexist BS into the series in my opinion.

Obviously the best solution would be to retain the queer identities of all the queer characters but tweak them so that they're not as problematic/stereotypical (e.g. don't have Zoisite and Fish Eye speak with "gay accents", have Haruka and Michiru explicitly refer to each other as girlfriend and girlfriend) and remove all of the homophobic/heterosexist dialog. But that wasn't going to happen in the 90s/early 00s when the original dub was done. I think, weird cousin thing aside, the original dub handled things as best they could, and it's also clear that the decision to censor the series' queer characters was an external one, so DiC/Pioneer/Optimum/CWi shouldn't really be blamed for it.

In any case, my point wasn't that the dub is objectively superior to the original in this respect (though I personally find it more palatable), but that the criticism it faces is a double standard. When I see people praising the original Japanese version while simultaneously lambasting the dub for "being homophobic," the cognitive dissonance gives me a headache. Criticize both or criticize neither.


And, just to be clear, I mean absolutely no disrespect to any of the LGBTQIA+ Sailor Moon fans out there who love and who draw inspiration from 90's anime Kunzite, Zoisite, Haruka, Michiru, Fish Eye, Seiya, etc. I think if anyone felt represented or empowered in any way by those characters, that's a wonderful thing. There are things about those characters I really love. (Apart from Kunzite and Seiya, who I find super boring :lol: ). I think, across its myriad incarnations, Sailor Moon is ultimately well-meaning and will continue to be beloved within the LGBTQIA+ community. But as a queer person myself, I tend to be quite critical of the series, in part to combat what I feel is a complete lack of critical thinking/analysis on the part of some fans when they attack the original dub while blindly praising the Japanese original, and in part because, even though I know Naoko/Osabu/TOEI will never read any of my comments, I hope that by putting them out into the universe it will somehow make a difference. I want Sailor Moon to do better in its representation of queer characters because I know it can, I feel it wants/means to, and I feel it has a certain responsibility to its fans, both queer and not queer, to do so. I want my Haruka/Michiru kisses. I want a fierce, openly asexual Rei. I want a confident, gender non-conforming Amazon Trio. And I think criticism, not complacency, is the way to achieve that. I'm not saying my way is the right way or that my opinions are the only ones that matter; I'm just saying what I think and why I express my opinions on these subjects so vociferously.
 

imaginationgirl

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#23
MementoNepenthe said:
Obviously the best solution would be to retain the queer identities of all the queer characters but tweak them so that they're not as problematic/stereotypical (e.g. don't have Zoisite and Fish Eye speak with "gay accents", have Haruka and Michiru explicitly refer to each other as girlfriend and girlfriend) and remove all of the homophobic/heterosexist dialog. But that wasn't going to happen in the 90s/early 00s when the original dub was done. I think, weird cousin thing aside, the original dub handled things as best they could, and it's also clear that the decision to censor the series' queer characters was an external one, so DiC/Pioneer/Optimum/CWi shouldn't really be blamed for it.

In any case, my point wasn't that the dub is objectively superior to the original in this respect (though I personally find it more palatable), but that the criticism it faces is a double standard. When I see people praising the original Japanese version while simultaneously lambasting the dub for "being homophobic," the cognitive dissonance gives me a headache. Criticize both or criticize neither.
I really don't understand why the fans likwe to pretend . Like they could really kept the original relationships. I saw the show when I was 13 online on youtube. I will say that my parents if I was a little kid . Would probably not let me watch any cartoon that had gay characters in it. Sailor moon is also a show that was gear towards children. Each country had to cencered so it fit the kid tv standarsd. You don't have to like it ,but you aleast have to keep that in mind.
 

Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#24
MementoNepenthe said:
I mean...the original dub is basically a loose adaptation of the anime when you get right down to it...
The adaptation changes to the 90s anime were done for creative purposes for the storyline while the censorship changes in the 90s anime dub were done for political reasons to appease homophobic parents.

I said that one *could* make arguments about that but that it *would* be *a stretch*. So... /shrug
If it's a stretch, I think it's unfair to the 90s anime to judge the writers for being homophobic for not making Setsuna queer when no canonical materials refers to her as a such in order to justify the DiC and Cloverway dubs erasing all actual canonical LGBTQ characters to appease homophobic parents.

Making Kunzite and Zoisite a couple would be a (problematic) example of the anime introducing queerness. The sex-changing (NOT gender fluid) Starlights? Not so much. After all, the anime doesn't get into whether or not Seiya's physically male body was just an Earth-exclusive thing or if that's how he/she is on Kinmoku as well, so whether or not anime!Seiya's "true form" is that of a woman is debatable. What's not debatable is the fact anime!Seiya was made a biological male in order to keep Usagi "it's better for girls to like boys" Tsukino straight.
I don't understand that it's problematic for the 90s anime to make Zoisite and Kunzite gay, yet acceptable for Naoko to have all three of the Trio be gay, if having gay villains is inherently problematic. But at the end of the day, neither Zoisite and Kunzite or Fisheye are villains whose villain status is defined by their sexual orientations, so I don't see how it's problematic that they're villains who happen to be gay. I would also like a citation from the anime writers that they made the Sailor Starlights change genders to make Usagi straight. It should also be pointed out that Naoko has also engaged in problematic content before herself, like having Minako make a transphobic joke about Artemis in Codename Sailor V, or that chapter of the Sailor V manga where Artemis has a gay panic reaction when he finds out the dog he fell in love with was a male.




The DiC/CWi dub gets way more of a pass for straight-washing the series to comply with censorship demands than the Japanese version gets for deliberately introducing a lot of heterosexist BS into the series in my opinion.
The censorship changes for the original dub are understandable given their time periods, but I don't see how turning Amara and Michelle into an incestous pseudo gay relationship and giving Michelle multiple off screen boyfriends is somehow less heterosexist than Zoisite and Kunzite being villains who happen to be gay.

Obviously the best solution would be to retain the queer identities of all the queer characters but tweak them so that they're not as problematic/stereotypical (e.g. don't have Zoisite and Fish Eye speak with "gay accents", have Haruka and Michiru explicitly refer to each other as girlfriend and girlfriend) and remove all of the homophobic/heterosexist dialog. But that wasn't going to happen in the 90s/early 00s when the original dub was done. I think, weird cousin thing aside, the original dub handled things as best they could, and it's also clear that the decision to censor the series' queer characters was an external one, so DiC/Pioneer/Optimum/CWi shouldn't really be blamed for it.
That's exactly what the Viz dub does yet hardcore DiC fans still complain about how terrible the Viz dub is and constantly spam the Viz Facebook page with unrealistic demands to have DiC terms and valleygirl slang in it.
 

Neo King Rose

Usagi's Rose
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#26
it was a different time - a more closed minded time where censorship was commonplace

despite the changes I'm glad we even got SM to begin with because it was this version that introduced me to sm and anime as a whole
 

imaginationgirl

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#27
Prince Rose said:
it was a different time - a more closed minded time where censorship was commonplace

despite the changes I'm glad we even got SM to begin with because it was this version that introduced me to sm and anime as a whole
Yeah if it wasn't for the dic dub. Sailor moon probably wouldn't be as popular in America or a lot less anime fans.
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
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#28
LifeGaveMeLemons said:
MariaTenebre said:
That being said I don't think the show was very homophobic at all. There was really only one incidence of perceived homophobia on the show itself
One can argue the very portrayals of Zoicite and Fish Eye were homophobic but I'll get to that.

leaving the CD dramas aside what the dub censored was any depiction of homosexuality at all including positive and heroic homosexual characters.
The dub was content to pretend homosexuals didn't exist the original went with stereotypes. Pick your poison. I'm honestly more forgiving of the dub because this was made in the Don't Ask Don't Tell Era. Even with gay marriage being legalized in the United States and Dadt being repealed it's still controversial too portray same sex attraction in kids media. There was no way in hell Dic/Cloverway was going to get away with it in the 90s

I'm less forgiving of the cousin thing if only because all they really had to do with refer to them as best friends and have the occasional Michelle has history with men (because there's no reason Michiru can't be bisexual or came out later) and you would have gotten the best of both worlds. Enough to appease Toonami censors and moral watchdogs but its still coded as a gay relationship. Instead you got cousins.

That being said I find the voice actors and the script to be superior in the Viz dub. Characters sound in my opinion alot better and more dignified. Beryl for instance sounds sexy, strong, commanding and intimidating not like the old witch voice used in the DiC dub
That's very subjective of course. I got used to the Viz dub but there's a lot of sameness that plagues the voice acting when so many characters sound the same. Often times I'm not sure if its Luna or Naru talking for example.

First of all I don't think that any of the gay characters were "negative stereotypes." Yes the series had gay villains but it also had gay heroes and many of the villains were sympathetic.
Zoicite who is so feminine looking in appearance all Optimum had to do was literally give him a female voice actress and female pronouns to make him a convincing if flat chested woman. Who appears with cherry blossoms and uses them as an attack and dies with cherry blossoms because he wanted to die beautifully all to signify how feminine he is. Kunzite himself isn't a negative stereotype but it does reinforce the stereotype that gay relationships like straight relationships need a man and a woman.

Fish Eye who again doesn't take much to be a convincing woman for the adapters because he's already girly enough who uses the "trap" stereotype. That feminine gay men all want to lure straight men into sex (or in this case steal their dream mirrors I suppose) by dressing up as a woman and the show falls into the idea that gay men and trans women are interchangeable.

But yes there is no negative gay stereotypes in Sailor Moon :|

Sailor Uranus and Neptune fair a lot better because the director seems to like lesbians better than gay men but there's still a clearly defined man (Haruka) of the relationship and the woman(Michiru). Not to mention they're the most fascist of the group.

Honestly I personally found modern SJW Marvel's portrayal of many gay characters as more offensive and stereotypical then Sailor Moon's.
I don't keep up with Marvel but what is stereotypical about their gay characters? I'm not being rhetorical I'm just curious.
Zoisite and Fisheye were feminine but again I don't think that being an effeminate gay male is some how wrong or a bad stereotype. Now painting all gay men as feminine is but over all Zoisite and Fisheye were great characters who were villains but even they had their sympathetic moments especially Fisheye. So no I never found Fisheye or Zoisite to be offensive. Hell I thought they were refreshing. Alot of effeminate gay men are painted in the media as being weak kittens who can't fight and are constantly the victim. Zoisite and Fisheye were incredibly strong willed people who would destroy those who crossed them. I found this refreshing as opposed to the femme gay guy constantly being a crying wallflower.
MementoNepenthe said:
Just want to respond to some things:

1. When female monsters-of-the-day are placed in increasingly revealing clothing and have their breasts repeatedly emphasized, that's sexual objectification. When female characters are put in bubble baths with their cleavage on display, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are subjected to up-skirt shots, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are shown naked, whether featureless or not (as in the case of human!Luna having visible nipples during her transformation), that's sexual objectification. This is a series about young women meant to empower (or at least entertain) an audience of young, impressionable girls. It doesn't need nudity.

2. I find it interesting how some people are so quick to accuse the original dub of homophobia for straight-washing the anime's queer characters, yet completely fail to recognize that the anime did the same thing to the manga. The 90s anime completely erased Haruka's gender fluidity (a butch woman =/= a genderfluid person). The 90s anime made Tiger's Eye and Hawk's Eye straight and fully heteronormative. (Per Naoko's notes, all three members of the Amazon Trio are supposed to be effeminate, possibly gay? cross-dressers - which is problematic in and of itself and open to criticism - with Hawk's Eye being the only one to actually cross-dress in the manga. Yet the 90s anime deliberately chose to make Fish Eye the only one who cross-dressed, and who was feminine and gay, and one must wonder at what motivated that choice.) The 90s anime erased the Starlights' gender identities as well by having them physically change sex, and this was clearly done so that Seiya could be a love interest for Usagi while keeping her straight. You can also make arguments about the changes to Rei's character, her dynamic with Minako, and the dynamic of Chibiusa and Hotaru's relationship. (You could even make the case that in the manga, Haruka, Michiru, AND Setsuna are in a polyamorous relationship, and that the anime further erases Setsuna's queerness, though that's arguably a stretch.) [And it bears pointing out that Kunzite and Zoisite are a couple ONLY in the 90s anime, and one must wonder as to why the 90s anime staff made that creative choice and why no other version of Sailor Moon has repeated it.] So if you're going to come for the original dub for straight-washing, you'd better do the same for the Japanese original.

3. At the end of the day, the original dub presents us with a show that lacks explicitly queer characters (though I think some, like Fish Eye, are open to interpretation), but it also doesn't reinforce or promote heterosexism. When speaking generally about love/romance, the dub tends to speak in gender neutral language, whereas the Japanese version tends to speak in terms of boys and girls. And while the Japanese version may have queer characters, they are usually presented in highly stereotypical and problematic ways, and whatever positivity may lie in their inclusion is undercut by having the protagonists (who are meant to be the moral compass and role models of the show) FREQUENTLY make homophobic/heterosexist comments (as seen in the season one Memorial, the R movie, a few episodes of S, the S audio drama, and at least one episode of Sailor Stars). I'd rather watch a show devoid of queer characters AND heterosexism than one that inexplicably features both.
Again I found no issue with the sexualization of the youma or the Senshi. Again your ideas stem from the sex negative feminist idea that if a woman is sexualized she can not be respected. I see no issue with the panty shots of the Senshi or shots of them in the bathroom showing their cleavage. They are young women not prepubescent children. The idea that a woman is objectified if portrayed in a sexual way is ironically both a sex negative feminist idea and an idea of various conservative patriarchal religions and ideologies. Plus we see plenty of shirtless men in the series as well. Me personally I love being sexualized I take it as a compliment. The idea that a woman can't be nude or sexual and be empowered is quite frankly disgusting and one of the reasons I steer clear from modern feminism that and the transphobia.

Next I believe Haruka was made more butch in the 90s anime to reflect the original idea of Naoko where the two were inspired by the Takarazuka Revue with Haruka portraying the male role and Michiru the female role. Also I liked Haruka's butchness I thought it was something refreshing in the series.

On your other comments there is no evidence of Haruka and Michiru being in a threesome with Setsuna. Setsuna is portrayed as being their friend. Ditto on Rei and Minako and Chibiusa and Hotaru they are in the manga portrayed as being good friends. As for the Amazon Trio I supposed they gave them different sexual identities to make them stand out. If I had done it I would have had Tiger's Eye to be straight, Hawk's Eye to be bi and Fisheye to be gay but that is just me. Also if the Trio were all meant to be effeminate and gay then Naoko Takeuchi herself heterosexualized them but making Tiger's Eye go after Sailor Mars and Fisheye go after Sailor Mercury

Also I didn't find too much heterosexism in the original series. This is only one moment I find truly heterosexist. Like for instance the girls definitely look up to and admire Haruka and Michiru's relationship.


As for Fiore I don't really consider their comments about Fiore's relationship with Mamoru to be homophobic more or less young women who are curious about gay relationships.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#30
NeoJupiter said:
The voices/music/sound mixing will always to be superior to me then the new Viz dub.
Well I will say this I did like certain songs better in the DiC dub. I always felt that My Only Love for instance was superior to Maboroshi no Ginzuishou in every way. I would honestly love to see someone to edit My Only Love on the Viz dub.
 
Jul 31, 2012
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#31
Wow. I never really paid any attention to anything dealing with LGBTQ in Sailor Moon. I just saw it as regular characters. There was that one incident in Stars where that annoying woman that liked Yaten kept coming on to him and he turned her down and she said, "She wasn't aware that he was gay." or whatever but she does it in very discourteous way and he gets pissed at her.

Other than that I always though it was played for laughs, like when Motokis little sister tried too kiss Makoto and it was a freak out! Lol

Didn't Nephrite dress as a woman as well? Whoever mentioned asexual Rei...I love you..lol Love asexuality.

I know that Fisheye was flamboyant and I always thought Tiger's eye dressed the most flamboyant out of them all.

I'm really curious how the Eclipse movie will portray them now. I wonder if Naoko will.tweak their personalities. I always wanted to see Tiger's Eye as some kind of biker. Weird though, I know.
 
Sep 29, 2017
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#32
I only watch the old supers dub because I don't feel like buying the viz blu-rays just yet. It's pretty brutal. there are multiple episodes cut too. Then theres the DiC dub. I just don't like that one because they messed up my favorite soundtrack for any show ever :(
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#33
Star Angel Haruki said:
Wow. I never really paid any attention to anything dealing with LGBTQ in Sailor Moon. I just saw it as regular characters. There was that one incident in Stars where that annoying woman that liked Yaten kept coming on to him and he turned her down and she said, "She wasn't aware that he was gay." or whatever but she does it in very discourteous way and he gets pissed at her.
And then Luna attacks her, not for making a homophobic remark, but for "insulting" Yaten by implying he were gay. Because nothing's more insulting than being called gay! Again, problematic.

And it's really these little moments, these instances, however minor, of characters saying or perpetuating homophobic/heterosexist ideas, that bother me. The stereotypical and unequal ways in which the queer characters are represented throughout the series also bother me, of course, but allowing the series to exist in a vacuum, there isn't really anything inherently harmful or upsetting about that. The homophobic/heterosexist dialog and behavior, on the other hand, is actively harmful and bothersome. So when I say I prefer the original dub when it comes to this facet of the show, it's not because it removes queer characters from the series (which makes it no different from literally thousands of other shows that don't have queer characters), but because it removes the homophobia and heterosexism from it. It's a lot more enjoyable for me to watch a show where everyone is straight and cis (which, again, makes it like a ton of other great shows) than it is for me to watch a show where there are gay/bi/non-binary/trans characters and, simultaneously, where the HEROES of the show - NOT the villains, NOT side characters, but the HEROES - actively talk about how girls should date boys, make vomiting noises when talking about male same-sex couples, and otherwise engage alternately in gay panic and gay fetishization.

(And yes, @NeonGenesis, I do take issue with Minako's dumb cross-dressing cat line and Artemis's gay panic. And if you re-read my comment, you'll note that I literally did criticize Naoko's ideas for the Amazon Trio. I've criticized Naoko repeatedly concerning her messiness regarding queer characters, from her complete under-development of Haruka and Michiru's relationship to the transphobic mess that was the final chapter of Toki*Meca. In the 10(?) years since that came out, I certainly hope she's grown and educated herself on trans identities/issues, and I hope she's done likewise regarding other LGBT+ identities/issues. I love Naoko and have enormous respect for her and her work, but that doesn't mean I won't and don't call her out on her problematic nonsense.)

(And while I do appreciate that Viz has removed or at least toned down much of the body-shaming and homophobia/heterosexism of the original, there's still Usagi's terrible "vampire drag queen" line from the first episode of R that rubs me the wrong way.)

(And *I* don't personally think Haruka/Michiru/Setsuna are in a polyamorous relationship. But they do live together, raise Hotaru together, have a very close bond with each other, and all wear wedding rings, so it would be easy for someone to read their relationship as being polyamorous.)

Didn't Nephrite dress as a woman as well? Whoever mentioned asexual Rei...I love you..lol Love asexuality.
Nephrite dressed up as a woman in Act 4 of Crystal iirc, but he doesn't cross-dress anywhere else as far as I can remember...

As an asexual myself, I know I'm biased, but... Asexual Rei is the best Rei.
 

Neon Genesis

Solaris Luna
Oct 31, 2015
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#34
Again though, Sailor Moon is a 25 year old show written by straight people for other straight people, and I think it's unfair to judge the show by modern progressive Western 2017 standards. When one compares Sailor Moon to other anime where LGBTQ characters are presented solely as comic relief or sex objects, Sailor Moon is far ahead of those shows and yaoi and yuri anime regularly romanticizes rape and fetishizes gay people which Sailor Moon doesn't do. Just next season there's a yuri show airing in Japan about a girl that forces herself on her stepsister. If the worst thing about Sailor Moon is Sailor Uranus is a butch lesbian, Sailor Moon seems not that bad to me.

As Maria also pointed out, Western media is also guilty of far worse than anything in Sailor Moon. I think Disney making their first canonically gay character a villain in the live action Beauty and the Beast while barely showing his sexuality at all was far more problematic than anything in Sailor Moon, yet Disney got a lot of high praise for their tokenism. The other objections you have listed are based on fan speculation about the characters that there is no official canonical material about either or making broad assumptions about the motivations of the writers from 25 years ago we simply don't know. In the example you brought up, we don't know Luna reacts negatively to Noriko because she hates gay people because the show doesn't tell us why she reacted. Until we know for certain otherwise, it is a stretch to prescribe negative intentions to Luna's character to justify censorship from the DiC version. At the end of the day, whether one prefers the DiC or Japanese version is a pure subjective opinion.

And I personally feel like it isn't fair to the creators to use unfounded gossip about the writers' personal values and motivations and political ideologies to somehow turn a subjective personal preference into some kind of objective moral value to justify your personal preference. If you like the DiC dub, that's all that matters that you like it, and you don't need to bring in politics or make personal judgments against the anime staff why you like something. You should like something that's what you like. To be clear, I don't have anything against you or your values Memento, and I appreciate your posts. But I feel like in general the dub vs sub has become over politicized these days. I used to share a lot of your concerns as a gay Sailor Moon fan myself, but having thought about it a lot, I don't think it's fair to the creators to hold them to our modern standards.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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#35
Again though, Sailor Moon is a 25 year old show written by straight people for other straight people, and I think it's unfair to judge the show by modern progressive Western 2017 standards.
I mean... I've felt this way since I first watched the show in its original Japanese (with subtitles) back around 2003, when the show was only 10 years old, so... Just because as time goes by more and more people start to realize how ignorant and unacceptable certain things are doesn't mean they weren't always so and that people shouldn't have known and done better. Personally, I don't think it's "unfair" to judge the show by "modern progressive Western" standards because 1) it's perfectly valid and commonplace to criticize older works from modern perspectives, and 2) I don't think my criticisms are really asking anything unreasonable.

When one compares Sailor Moon to other anime where LGBTQ characters are presented solely as comic relief or sex objects, Sailor Moon is far ahead of those shows and yaoi and yuri anime regularly romanticizes rape and fetishizes gay people which Sailor Moon doesn't do. Just next season there's a yuri show airing in Japan about a girl that forces herself on her stepsister. If the worst thing about Sailor Moon is Sailor Uranus is a butch lesbian, Sailor Moon seems not that bad to me.
Just because there are shows that do worse doesn't exempt Sailor Moon from criticism. We can appreciate the positive aspects of the series and still point out its shortcomings.

As Maria also pointed out, Western media is also guilty of far worse than anything in Sailor Moon. I think Disney making their first canonically gay character a villain in the live action Beauty and the Beast while barely showing his sexuality at all was far more problematic than anything in Sailor Moon, yet Disney got a lot of high praise for their tokenism.
Disney got called out for their BS way more than they got praised. And again, just because other series/movies/media have done worse doesn't exempt Sailor Moon from criticism.

In the example you brought up, we don't know Luna reacts negatively to Noriko because she hates gay people because the show doesn't tell us why she reacted. Until we know for certain otherwise, it is a stretch to prescribe negative intentions to Luna's character to justify censorship from the DiC version
.

1. I never said Luna hates gay people. Her reaction would be the result of internalized homophobia. Plenty of girls/women say things like "you throw like a girl," "stop crying like a little girl," call boys/men girls/women to insult them, etc. That doesn't mean they actively hate girls/women; just that they have internalized misogyny.

2. I don't think my interpretation of that scene is a stretch. It seems pretty clear to me. But if you prefer to attribute Luna's actions to some nebulous unknown, that's fine.

3. For the thousandth and final time, I am not pointing out these instances of homophobia, heterosexism, or problematic characterizations in order to justify censorship in the DiC/CWi dub. I am pointing these things out in response to the hypocrisy/double standard/ignorance of Sailor Moon fans who say the original dub is terrible because it's "homophobic" when the original Japanese version is rife with explicit instances of literal homophobia.

And I personally feel like it isn't fair to the creators to use unfounded gossip about the writers' personal values and motivations and political ideologies to somehow turn a subjective personal preference into some kind of objective moral value to justify your personal preference.
Sailor Moon is a work of fiction. It is not a documentary. Every characterization, every line of dialog is a CHOICE. That the writers of the anime and its related media CHOSE to have the series' HEROES make homophobic and heterosexist remarks speaks volumes to me about their "personal values and motivations." If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt, that's fine. But please don't say that I'm being unfair and using "unfounded gossip."


Anyway, that's really all I have to say on this subject. Peace!
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
5,082
438
165
#36
MementoNepenthe actually there is nothing saying in that scene that Luna could not have scratched the woman for using a homophobic remark. The woman was clearly trying to insult Yaten anyway.

Also Artemis didn't like Minako calling him a cross dressing cat because he is not a cross dresser. Many masculine men don't like to be feminized likewise many feminine women don't like to be masculinized. Hell as a transwoman I don't like to be masculinized. Feeling masculine or being seen as masculine is a negative for me.

I honestly didn't mind the Vampire Drag Queen comment it was a joke. I don't mind say racist, sexist or homophobic jokes etc. I mean I love Family Guy, American Dad, the Simpsons, Futurama and many shows with more risque humor. So long as it is actually funny and not something that would say crawl out of the mouth of some extremist bigot.
 

Mitsukara

Lumen Cinererum
Apr 1, 2017
485
218
165
31
D-Point
#37
EDIT: Oh my gosh so many typos. Editing just to fix the typos a couple days alter. Seriously, "Thel after" isntead of "the latter"... sigh.

Speaking as someone who is also trans, I can't recall anything in Sailor Moon that really offends me because while some of it does seem a little dated or stiff, there doesn't seem to be much malice or dismissiveness behind it. It doesn't feel like it mocks or attacks people for that, only like it approaches it from an inexperienced perspective. LGBT subjects tend to be addressed casually and reasonably in enough instances that I feel comfortable with it.

Haruka and Michiru and Zoisite and Kunzite are treated as having reasonable and sympathetic relationships, Fisheye's girliness is never villified, the Starlights' sex changing is explicit yet seems to simply be accepted with no questions, the show technically features both male and female nudity (the latter is slightly more frequent but we totally saw Mamoru's posterior in the 'Usagi the Ninja' episode). On top of that many characters feel bi-curious in their behavior and this is usually played in a very gentle and cutesy way, like certain scenes with Ami,and Makoto (that thing in the alley, or the dancing in SuperS) or with Usagi and Rei (nuzzling on the couch in R). It seems good-intentioned enough and with few enough awkward moments that it doesn't really bother me.

But then again, I think I have low standards for LGBT-friendliness because I grew up in a very hostile environment where people were very bigoted against all things LGBT.

I also have a really high tolerance for fetishy things and sexualization because I have some weird interests of my own and I have a firm belief that there's nothing it's wrong to write fiction about or draw. I do not demand a universal standard from fiction. I do think the culture might sort of shift with the kinds of stories that are told with major funding/large companies, but I think the limitations of the culture shape the art more than than the art really shapes the culture. With the advent of the internet, I feel it is a good thing that almost any work of fiction can be created and posted freely in some capacity now.

And even aside from that free pass on basically anything sexualized, I also think that Sailor Moon's sexualization, other than a funky predisposition towards ridiculously long limps and short skirts, is really pretty darn tame anyway compared to lots of other things. It has a moment here or there, but it's pretty calm. It's technically got a teenage cast, but these teenagers look nothing like teenagers, they look like adult fashion models, even 'short' 'overweight' Usagi. For better or worse. If you sought out someone in real life who looked like this, the closest examples you'd find wouldn't be teenagers. I think the only real exception to this for someone sexualized in the show is Chibi-usa (particularly that one transformation sequence), and that DOES get a little awkward, but I'm willing to overlook it.

So I can definitely see where Sailor Moon isn't perfect or where there's some cause for offense an discomfort, but my own standards are more relaxed, I suppose. *shrug* Though I do try to hold MYSELF to a higher standard, generally.

...wait a minute, this thread was about the DiC dub? Oops. Um, well, I've rambled that a billion times in other places but TL;DR: I like a few of the names or a few of the line changes and I like "My Only Love" but I hate the constant editing and the cuts and the mostly-awkward dialogue changes and the other music changes are kinda bleh too and mostly it's really awkward and I cringe every time I try to watch it but I always eventually come back to try again and I someday hope to finish the Dark Kingdom arc in that format, and maybe even the Makaiju arc because I'm curious what they say about the 'negaverse' in that version. But it kinda makes my skin crawl honestly. : ( I don't hate it and I respect people who love it, but, I just can't get into it properly when I'm so used to the subtitled versions.

Also, Arisawa Takanori was awesome and deserves more praise. ^_^
 

CatKite

Luna Nova
Oct 16, 2017
56
0
0
#38
MariaTenebre said:
NeoJupiter said:
The voices/music/sound mixing will always to be superior to me then the new Viz dub.
Well I will say this I did like certain songs better in the DiC dub. I always felt that My Only Love for instance was superior to Maboroshi no Ginzuishou in every way. I would honestly love to see someone to edit My Only Love on the Viz dub.
Different feelings... My only love sounds romantic and that other sound more dramatic :unsure: ( names them.. )
 

flash over

Luna Crescens
Feb 7, 2015
148
37
15
#39
MementoNepenthe said:
Just want to respond to some things:

1. When female monsters-of-the-day are placed in increasingly revealing clothing and have their breasts repeatedly emphasized, that's sexual objectification. When female characters are put in bubble baths with their cleavage on display, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are subjected to up-skirt shots, that's sexual objectification. When barely pubescent female characters are shown naked, whether featureless or not (as in the case of human!Luna having visible nipples during her transformation), that's sexual objectification. This is a series about young women meant to empower (or at least entertain) an audience of young, impressionable girls. It doesn't need nudity.

2. I find it interesting how some people are so quick to accuse the original dub of homophobia for straight-washing the anime's queer characters, yet completely fail to recognize that the anime did the same thing to the manga. The 90s anime completely erased Haruka's gender fluidity (a butch woman =/= a genderfluid person). The 90s anime made Tiger's Eye and Hawk's Eye straight and fully heteronormative. (Per Naoko's notes, all three members of the Amazon Trio are supposed to be effeminate, possibly gay? cross-dressers - which is problematic in and of itself and open to criticism - with Hawk's Eye being the only one to actually cross-dress in the manga. Yet the 90s anime deliberately chose to make Fish Eye the only one who cross-dressed, and who was feminine and gay, and one must wonder at what motivated that choice.) The 90s anime erased the Starlights' gender identities as well by having them physically change sex, and this was clearly done so that Seiya could be a love interest for Usagi while keeping her straight. You can also make arguments about the changes to Rei's character, her dynamic with Minako, and the dynamic of Chibiusa and Hotaru's relationship. (You could even make the case that in the manga, Haruka, Michiru, AND Setsuna are in a polyamorous relationship, and that the anime further erases Setsuna's queerness, though that's arguably a stretch.) [And it bears pointing out that Kunzite and Zoisite are a couple ONLY in the 90s anime, and one must wonder as to why the 90s anime staff made that creative choice and why no other version of Sailor Moon has repeated it.] So if you're going to come for the original dub for straight-washing, you'd better do the same for the Japanese original.

3. At the end of the day, the original dub presents us with a show that lacks explicitly queer characters (though I think some, like Fish Eye, are open to interpretation), but it also doesn't reinforce or promote heterosexism. When speaking generally about love/romance, the dub tends to speak in gender neutral language, whereas the Japanese version tends to speak in terms of boys and girls. And while the Japanese version may have queer characters, they are usually presented in highly stereotypical and problematic ways, and whatever positivity may lie in their inclusion is undercut by having the protagonists (who are meant to be the moral compass and role models of the show) FREQUENTLY make homophobic/heterosexist comments (as seen in the season one Memorial, the R movie, a few episodes of S, the S audio drama, and at least one episode of Sailor Stars). I'd rather watch a show devoid of queer characters AND heterosexism than one that inexplicably features both.

1. They are fictional characters; it doesn’t matter.
2. They are fictional characters; it doesn’t matter.
3. They are fictional characters; it doesn’t matter.

Go find some real issues and stop imposing a victim complex on something that has no bearing over reality.
 
Nov 15, 2017
94
67
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#40
Luna, Usagi(Season 3~4 English), Nehelenia was very terrible during old version. Luna's voice was more like grandmother than Artemis.... Artemis was quite bad when I heard him first, but kinda cuter as I watched his English voice (But VIZ made his voice even cuter)