Fact or Fiction: Was Ikuhara out to get Mamoru?

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Do you believe Ikuhara was out to get Mamoru?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • No

    Votes: 9 75.0%
  • I'd be out to get him too, Reisagi all the way!

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • Total voters
    12
Jun 17, 2019
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#1
Probably one of the longest standing rumors within the fandom centers around Ikuharas feelings - or lack thereof - for our favorite Masked Man. I'm sure you've all heard it by now: Ikuhara was a salty Reisagi shipper who did everything in his power to make Mamoru look bad and reduce his role so that the audience would ship his own personal OTP, well my question is how true do you think this actually is? It's obvious that Ikuhara had a clear distaste for Mamoru and preferred to focus on the girls - as his role in the show was most reduced during the seasons he was in charge of - some of the comments he's made about Mamoru over the years were quite disparaging too, though knowing Kuni it's hard to say whether he was actually just joking or not.

Nevertheless it's certaintly true that Mamoru came off in quite the unsavory light at times in the 90's anime, especially compared to all his other counterparts which are portrayed quite positively - the question is though do you think this was all Ikuhara's doing? Particularly the aging him up, Break-Up arc and Mamoru dating Rei?

There was absolutely no reason to age up Mamoru whatsoever, sure it was only by a year or two but it was still pointless nonetheless. It had no effect on the plot and there were hardly even any filler episodes focusing on Mamoru being a big old college student, you could honestly take this out and leave him as the high schooler he's supposed to be and literally nothing would change, so I can't even understand what purpose it serves other than just to make Mamoru look creepy?

Then combine that with him dating Rei is just a bad look altogether. Maybe you could excuse him dating Usagi even while he's in college since one could argue he's destined to be with her and didn't even really have a choice and all that, but while dating one underage girl is maybe a side-eye, two is definitely a cause for concern. And unlike Usagi, Rei wasn't his destined moon lover, it was entirely his choice to continue seeing her.

Now one might argue that even that doesn't really count because he very obviously wasn't into Rei and she was the one who kept hounding him to begin with, and while that's true, as the adult it was still his responsibility to set appropriate boundaries and turn her down. I mean, they even have a scene in Classic where Motoki calls him out on this admitting he would never go for Usagi or her friends because they're just so young and of course he would let them down gently if they asked because that's the responsible adult thing to do and Mamoru blushes in embarrasment/shame over this whlie imagining Rei - so don't give me that bull that he didn't even know they were dating and it wasn't his fault, that blush of guilt gives it all away that he knew what he was doing was wrong and yet he still continued to see her.

Again I'm not sure what this scene even accomplishes other than just to make Mamoru look bad. (especially in comparison to Motoki) The fact that this scene even exists proves that Toei knew it was inappropriate to age him up and have him date Middle School Girls , so it can't have been just a superflous oversight on their part so why even do it to begin with? The very existence of this scene seems to be just to stick it to Mamoru and give the audience a reason to hate him. And as for the Break-Up arc ---- yes I realize Toei probably wrote themselves into a corner since it was just meant to be filler but seriously, making Mamoru's future self the source of those dreams for a completely asinine reason? They couldn't have used literally anyone else? Or maybe just not do the arc in the first place and have the filler conflict be Usagi's jealousy over Chibi-Ua like it was in the Manga? Again, literally what purpose does this serve other than just to paint Mamoru in a bad, unflattering light?

So what do you think, do you all think Ikuhara was reponsible for all these changes to Mamoru's character and he was deliberately sabotaging him so as to get the audience to hate him? Personally I do believe the rumor, if only because that scene alone of Motoki calling him out really makes Mamoru look like a Grade-A creep and there was literally no reason for it, it was completely uncalled for.
 
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Slowpokeking

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#2
Mamoru was written as a college student because it fits his appearance and behavior better.

Actually Mamoru/Usagi relationship is a bit similar to Rei and Usagi, they also gave him a reason to do so. He had a tragic past to spend time picking on Usagi makes him happy. I don't agree with Ikuhara's some takes in S and SuperS, but I don't think it's his fault.

Plus he was only one of the episode directors during Classic, I doubt he would have such power to direct major characters' setting.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#3
, well my question is how true do you think this actually is? It's obvious that Ikuhara had a clear distaste for Mamoru and preferred to focus on the girls - as his role in the show as most reduced during the seasons he was in charge of - some of the comments he's made about Mamoru over the years were quite disparaging too, though knowing Kuni it's hard to say whether he was actually just joking or not.

No one has ever seemed to be able to produce actual quotes of Ikuhara saying he hates Mamoru, I’d like to see them.


Ikuhara took over as series director starting with the Black Moon arc, where Mamoru had a fairly big role. He also was the brain child behind Sailor Moon R the movie which was heavily focused on Mamoru as a character.

As far as Sailor Moon S, yes his role was reduced but that series was mostly focusing on the Outers. Likewise SuperS became the Chibi Usa show and tbh he fared far far better in SuperS than Rei and the other girls did. Tuxedo Mask appeared way more often to help Moon and Chibi Moon than the Guardian Senshi did.



Particularly the aging him up, Break-Up arc and Mamoru dating Rei?
Only one of those three things was done when Ikuhara was the series director.
Junichi Sato was series director for the Dark Kingdom and Makai tree arcs.

If the break up arc was to make Mamoru look bad it wouldn’t show him all broken up over hurting Usagi and giving him a “if I’m with her she’ll die!” excuse. It’s obvious the break up was “to keep things spicy” Sato already delayed the relationship by making Mamoru amnesiac and then Ikuhara threw the break up to keep “the interest going” we could talk about how cliche and hackneyed it is that writers think couples need to be broken up to be interesting but its not good evidence for some sort of hate agenda on Mamoru


Personally I do believe the rumor, if only because that scene alone of Motoki calling him out really makes Mamoru look like a Grade-A creep and there was literally no reason for it, it was completely uncalled for.
Except

Ikuhara was not the series director at the time Junichi Sato was

He didn’t direct that episode . Harume Kosaka did

He didn’t write that episode. Shigeru Yanagawa did


So if that’s your big reason to believe Ikuhara hates Mamoru I’m sorry it doesn’t pan out
 

Slowpokeking

Aurorae Lunares
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#4
I don't think Mamoru was written bad in Classic, no, he got a lot of characterization and development, more than the next 4 seasons and more than the manga.

The problem is that his romance with Usagi went too rushed in the later half and it looks more like Sailor Moon was the one he loved, not Usagi Tano.
 

Slowpokeking

Aurorae Lunares
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#5
No one has ever seemed to be able to produce actual quotes of Ikuhara saying he hates Mamoru, I’d like to see them.


Ikuhara took over as series director starting with the Black Moon arc, where Mamoru had a fairly big role. He also was the brain child behind Sailor Moon R the movie which was heavily focused on Mamoru as a character.
He left in the middle of the season to direct the movie, so BMC was not fully his job. The movie focused a lot on Mamoru, so I don't think he dislikes Mamoru at all.
 
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#6
If the break up arc was to make Mamoru look bad it wouldn’t show him all broken up over hurting Usagi and giving him a “if I’m with her she’ll die!” excuse. It’s obvious the break up was “to keep things spicy” Sato already delayed the relationship by making Mamoru amnesiac and then Ikuhara threw the break up to keep “the interest going” we could talk about how cliche and hackneyed it is that writers think couples need to be broken up to be interesting but its not good evidence for some sort of hate agenda on Mamoru
It makes him look bad by having it be his future self who did it for the stupidest of reasons so it just ends up looking like Mamoru himself turns into an asshole in the future.


Mamoru was written as a college student because it fits his appearance and behavior better.

Actually Mamoru/Usagi relationship is a bit similar to Rei and Usagi, they also gave him a reason to do so. He had a tragic past to spend time picking on Usagi makes him happy. I don't agree with Ikuhara's some takes in S and SuperS, but I don't think it's his fault.

Plus he was only one of the episode directors during Classic, I doubt he would have such power to direct major characters' setting.

Ikuhara took over as series director starting with the Black Moon arc, where Mamoru had a fairly big role. He also was the brain child behind Sailor Moon R the movie which was heavily focused on Mamoru as a character.


Only one of those three things was done when Ikuhara was the series director.
Junichi Sato was series director for the Dark Kingdom and Makai tree arcs.

Except

Ikuhara was not the series director at the time Junichi Sato was

He didn’t direct that episode . Harume Kosaka did

He didn’t write that episode. Shigeru Yanagawa did

So if that’s your big reason to believe Ikuhara hates Mamoru I’m sorry it doesn’t pan out
Ikuhara might not have been the actual director until the Black Moon portion of R, but I thought he still had a big influence in the production from the start and was always coordinating with Sato? Wasn’t it because of him Rei was promoted to the Leader role and made Usagi’s BFF replacing Minako because he was fascinated by her design and he claimed her as his waifu?


He left in the middle of the season to direct the movie, so BMC was not fully his job. The movie focused a lot on Mamoru, so I don't think he dislikes Mamoru at all.
I didn’t know he left in the middle of the season, where did you hear this? I always thought he had been juggling both the R season and movie simultaneously.
 
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#7
I don't think Mamoru was written bad in Classic, no, he got a lot of characterization and development, more than the next 4 seasons and more than the manga.
Eh— If you’re talking about the DK arc of the Manga only maybe, but the Manga as a whole? No way, Mamoru’s characterization and as a character gets way more development than his portrayal in Classic, since he eventually comes into his own as a Senshi in his own right and discovers his Sailor Crystal - which is also the culmination of him overcoming his insecurities about being a burden to Usagi which the 90’s anime never really resolves.
 
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Slowpokeking

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#8
Eh— If you’re talking about the DK arc of the Manga only maybe, but the Manga as a whole? No way, Mamoru’s characterization and as a character gets way more development than his portrayal in Classic, since he eventually comes into his own as a Senshi in his own right and discovers his Sailor Crystal - which is also the culmination of him overcoming his insecurities over being a burden to Usagi which the 90’s anime never really resolves.
You mean the part which he played a tiny bit of Eternal Sailor Moon's final fight, and gets owned easily in the next arc?

Compare to he actually sacrificing his life to defeat the 2nd big bad of the season on his own?
 
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Slowpokeking

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#9
Ikuhara might not have been the actual director until the Black Moon portion of R, but I thought he still had a big influence in the production from the start and was always coordinating with Sato? Wasn’t it because of him Rei was promoted to the Leader role and made Usagi’s BFF replacing Minako because he was fascinated by her design and he claimed her as his waifu?
I don't think that's the case due to his role. And Rei's plot didn't have much to do with Mamoru's treatment(which isn't bad) at all.

I didn’t know he left in the middle of the season, where did you hear this? I always thought he had been juggling both the R season and movie simultaneously.
I've read before that he didn't handle much of R due to the movie.
 
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#10
I think it would be better if Ikuhara shipped Rei with Minako like what Takeuchi wanted...
 
#11

saintfighteraqua

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#12
I chose no, but only because I don't know. XD

Naoko would never allow Reisagi, and I'm glad. I love Usagi and Rei together, just not romantically. I think of all the girls, they have the most growth and natural interactions.
Maybe I'm just biased because I have a friendship since I was a kid that was very similar where we were nearly antagonistic (he's still mean and teasing) but we grew a strong bond that outlasted my other friendships by many miles. It was a very Rei/Usagi 90s anime dynamic.
I know a lot of people feel like anime Rei is toxic or mean to Usagi, but she balances Usagi out better than the others.The other girls mostly let Usagi control things or let her get away with stuff that Rei calls out and I think their relationship becomes a very healthy one.

Romance aside, I do think Rei and Usagi get the best scenes together. Rei's death in classic, her moments in helping Usagi get through stuff in R and of course their scene in Stars where Usagi runs to her over everyone else. I don't doubt Usagi loves the others just as much, but her bond with Rei is deeper because of their friction.

I don't know if Ikuhara had it out for him, but I think Mamoru only works in some scenes and situations and comes off a bit in the way when the girls are all hanging out.
It might not have been so bad if they hadn't aged him up, which I agree, was a stupid, pointless change.
He honestly seems to get more screentime than needed for what the anime was going for.

The problem with Ikuhara (and one of his strengths) was he wanted Sailor Moon to be his own little fantasy project and that's not what it was.
He had some amazing ideas and sometimes I wish he'd been given more control, but I also think he would have bent the show into something nearly unrecognizable (He seems to thrive off of repetitive stuff, and Sailor Moon suffered for that in my opinion.)
 
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#13
I'm sorry, Rei/Minako will never happen in the 90s anime.
That's not a problem...although Takeuchi might be pushing Ikuhara to ship them instead.

I chose no, but only because I don't know. XD

Naoko would never allow Reisagi, and I'm glad. I love Usagi and Rei together, just not romantically. I think of all the girls, they have the most growth and natural interactions.
Utena is based on Manga! Usagi and Anthy is based on Anime Neherenia and Rei, they are more Harumichi in the movie I think.
 

sapphire91

Stella Nova
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#14
We can never know, but we can speculate. Mamoru's role gets more and more prominent in the manga, while the anime put less and less focus on him. Knowing Ikuhara and his yuri obsession, we can assume he was not too happy working on a project with an already set in stone end game hetero ship. I am fairly certain he wanted to explore senshixsenshi couples but he was limited to hints. Of course we can never know and we will never know. I love the guy, but he did alot of stuff on Sailor Moon I wasn't a huge fan of. He did great stuff with S but in SuperS he was down the rabbit hole... He loves bizzare stuff, and the show became way too bizzare near the end of his time working on it. The circus theme sure allowed him to experiment more but he went a bit too far with the Trio. I love his original work, where he design stuff his way and is not forced to make his ideas in a narrative that doesn't fit.
 
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sapphire91

Stella Nova
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#15
That's not a problem...although Takeuchi might be pushing Ikuhara to ship them instead.


Utena is based on Manga! Usagi and Anthy is based on Anime Neherenia and Rei, they are more Harumichi in the movie I think.
Utena is not exactly based on manga. Utena was conceptualized by a group of people including Ikuhara. Actually the manga author for some odd reason was forced to sacrifice a lot of the collective intent to be able to publish it, while the anime was given more freedom to realize it.
 
#16
We can never know, but we can speculate. Mamoru's role gets more and more prominent in the manga, while the anime put less and less focus on him. Knowing Ikuhara and his yuri obsession, we can assume he was not too happy working on a project with an already set in stone end game hetero ship. I am fairly certain he wanted to explore senshixsenshi couples but he was limited to hints. Of course we can never know and we will never know. I love the guy, but he did alot of stuff on Sailor Moon I wasn't a huge fan of. He did great stuff with S but in SuperS he was down the rabbit hole... He loves bizzare stuff, and the show became way too bizzare near the end of his time working on it. The circus theme sure allowed him to experiment more but he went a bit too far with the Trio. I love his original work, where he design stuff his way and is not forced to make his ideas in a narrative that doesn't fit.
Yes...
 
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#18
Utena is not exactly based on manga. Utena was conceptualized by a group of people including Ikuhara. Actually the manga author for some odd reason was forced to sacrifice a lot of the collective intent to be able to publish it, while the anime was given more freedom to realize it.
I said Utena and Anthy are based on Usagi and Rei, at least the manga incarnations of Usagi and Rei, if only Ikuhara agreed on having Reinako ship screentime like Manga, PGSM, and Sera Myu, things will be different, he ended up having Utena similar to either Minako or Haruka.
 

sapphire91

Stella Nova
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#19
It is actually a problem

I said Utena and Anthy are based on Usagi and Rei, at least the manga incarnations of Usagi and Rei, if only Ikuhara agreed on having Reinako ship screentime like Manga, PGSM, and Sera Myu, things will be different
They are not based on Usagi and Rei, and there is literary no parallels between the two... You are really trying to make headcanon canon. :D Where do you see any resemblance between Usagi and Rei and Utena and Anthy?
 
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#20
They are not based on Usagi and Rei, and there is literary no parallels between the two... You are really trying to make headcanon canon. :D Where do you see any resemblance between Usagi and Rei and Utena and Anthy?
I made a thread about that in this forums the parallels between Utena and SM, wherein I talked about the parallels, basically Utena was inspired by Usagi and Haruka but ended up similar to either Minako and Haruka depending on the version you watch.