I rewatched Cosmos today... and it got worse

[Wild Rose Rebellion]

Wait, she either couldn't tell the story she wanted because she was rushed, or she actually managed to do it and things the manga is perfectly fine as it is, but not both.

She did tell the story she wanted but she also left some things underdeveloped as many writers do. Nobody is saying the manga is perfect, just that she is at peace with how it turned out and doesn't need to revisit it.

And while I do believe she could have been rushed and tired, she did have assistants to help her out, so her complaining sounds a tiny bit like playing the victim to me.

It might sound like that to you, but I don't recall her playing the victim. She's is always clear that she overworked because she choose to and that she had such a hard time because of her own insistence on making up a new story instead of just using Sailor V like Toei wanted. In recent interviews she even seems to remember her overworking with fondness.

He might have said that, but I doubt he actually believes it. It's the lamest excuse ever, and it sounds more like a cop-out to try to portray the manga in a good light, as if its shortcomings aren't actually, you know, shortcomings.

Shortcomings are objective but one's response to them is subjective, and you are projecting yours on Osabu. The manga has objective shortcomings, but you treat your dislike of them as a fact everyone must agree with. Understand that others can and do like the manga in spite of its rushed plotting, just like others like the 90s anime in spite of its repetitive structure, the live action in spite of its cheap effects, Crystal in spite of its pacing, and so on. Surely you are able to overlook or even embrace the flaws in your favorite version as all are imperfect, and it's the same for everyone depending on their own preferences.

This is Osabu's full quote: "Sailor Moon was made in such a madcap frenzy, but we took care to include tender moments. Rather than [plot holes], bear in mind parts of the story weren't fully thought out. However, I think that gave fans room to imagine, and “Sailor Moon” came to be widely loved. Of course, I think the biggest reason it became a hit was that Takeuchi poured so much energy into it, and that momentum spread throughout the world at just the right time." You're free to believe him or not, but it is a fact that fans are still theorizing about a thirty-year-old manga because its underdeveloped parts allow for that.

and that the constant re-releases and minor touch-ups it had might have bunked on fan expectations that Takeuchi would, for once, flesh something out and change things she hadn't been able to pull off before - none of which was the case after all.

An author saying that their work was rushed doesn't equal an announcement that they intend to revise and flesh it out. Naoko never said she would revise or add to the manga so why would anyone expect her to? I don't even think it would necessarily be an improvement, Masami Kurumada is doing that to his work and it is messy.

Naoko's weird licensing eccentricities, her demanding that honorifics be kept in foreign dubs, combined with her not only not producing anything new while preventing others from developing her franchise further are frustrating to say the least.

It might be frustrating for you, but not for everyone. For me, Sailor Moon ended definitely decades ago and already has plenty of readaptations that are fun to revisit, so I'm not frustrated, I appreciate it for what it is and don't need more, and if Naoko and Osabu want to treat the series as just that one story they are under no obligation to allow for sequels or spin-offs to occur. Not everything has to be a prolific IP and your expectation of allowing others to develop the franchise further sounds like wanting to turn it into a cash cow to me.

None of which would be a problem, of course, if the franchise was just left in the past, as something we could just remember fondly.

It shouldn't be a problem because you can always leave what you like in your past and remember it fondly. You do not need to waste your time reading the manga, watching its adaptations, or looking at the Vogue collaboration if you know you're going to dislike it. You can choose to be bitter about a series not being what you want it to be or just accept that parts of it aren't for you, appreciate the parts that you like, and move on.

 

[Talentless Fool]

Maybe she’s just happy about what she wrote and just want to leave it this way and just keep making money with that. It worked till now why should she change it if she’s happy with her situation?

That’s funny that you seem to feel that she owe you something, is that why you’re so frustrated with her ? Because opposite to Kurumada known as the Manga George Lucas she’s not letting her manga turning into 50th different spinoff? (That’s a legit question)

Question 1 - Why do you keep editing your post into a milder one? People have already seen your spicy version.

Question 2 - If you're happy with the way things are and are fan of Naoko Takeuchi the holy mother who's actions are not to be questioned, why can't there be people who are not happy with things and are not fan of her?
It's not like people are saying to go to Japan and burn her as a witch.

I have said it a LOT of times - I do not want anything from her.
Hell, Sailor Moon is not as rebootable as Dragon Ball, Saint Seiya, Digimon or Precure.
Plus anything from her would simply be 'half-baked'.

Quite the contrary in fact! I wish she never comes out of retirement and stays at home, spending her joyful days drinking Royal Milk Tea while having her nails done.

The problem is that she isn't letting things go as they are.
She is ridiculous in her demands and makes other people's lives more difficult.

Yes, I know she's a millionaire and you're a mega big fan of that fact, you've said it enough times to me.
However that doesn't make her the Queen of the world which she clearly thinks she is with her mind bogging demands.

I care more about the pain and grievances of the peasants instead of that of the Pompous Queen.

Plain and simple.

Kurumada Productions calls Overture part of a メディアミックス here and Masami Kurumada also talks about wanting his new storyline to be told in media mix in Overture's pamphlet.

And like I said he intended to make a sequel to Hades in anime format instead of making it into a manga first.

I don't see where there's this reboot you're talking about.

Same source,「そして、全三部作になるような形で作りたい」.

Just like I said, from the beginning Kurumada intended the final arc to be divided into 3 Acts/Chapters.

We can talk about why so many Saint Seiya projects have been cancelled or failed in the last two decades. Overture's production was messy, TMS overplayed their hand, Saintia Sho had a poor budget, the movie might just be a pet project, but the bottom line is that they all failed. If you don't take the time to detail the circumstances that led to Crystal's rushed animation every time you talk about its failings, I don't see why we must be so demure when talking about the many quantifiable flops in Saint Seiya.

Stop.Hallucinating.

I have always argued and explained my points about anything I've discussed on this forum.
If you don't think they are valid - that's your right.
Quite the contrary, you're the one whose always bringing half-baked info and misinformation about Saint Seiya which the majority of the forum would take by your word considering they'll probably not bother to check the facts for themselves.

If after 10 years, you're still gonna come with the excuse they had only 2 weeks, they were outsourced to the Philippines, the same can be said for 3/4 of Toei's productions and they don't rival Crystal's abysmal quality.

What I would notice is the plus sign after 2006 in your original "Saint Seiya's revival (2003-2006+)" quote, and that plus sign would include many flops, one of which cost Toei several millions of dollars.

I suppose it wasn't evident to you that when I purposely mentioned 2003-2006+, I meant the projects that debuted in that era - Next Dimension, Episode G and Lost Canvas which were success and even continue to get new content and financial success even today - meaning their success still continues today.

I didn't know I had to blurt out everything to the detail.

I don't disagree but what made Soul of Gold successful was that it sold discs and toys. Viewership is important but Toei's reports measure success in sales (and singles out Crystal as a successful seller).

Then, pray tell explain why they changed their oh-so successful strategy 2 times?

I guess it's out of pure love for us fans.

Posting good scenes doesn't make the ugly ones go away. You claimed the OVAs always maintained good perspectives and anatomy and that just isn't true. If someone replied to the awful web Crystal screenshots with a bunch of good ones, you could rightfully call it coping and that's what you're doing with Inferno.

It's not just the art, the OVAs after Sanctuary have awful animations and it's all the more disappointing because Sanctuary was impeccable and its sequel had scenes like this:

Stop.Hallucinating.

The Hades Inferno and Elysion OVAs still look better than Crystal I/II.
Sure they barely have any animation especially for the last 2 Inferno OVAs and pretty much all of Elysion and the art is still outstanding.

Characters with complicated armors are still drawn correctly, perspectives are respected, animators still know how anatomy works no matter how far the camera is to the character, characters are super expressive.

The main problem is the very boring screenplay with a storyboard completely faithful to Kurumada's.

When did I mentioned it was perfect or even talked about the quality of the animation???

You're implying I'm cherry picking?
Ok, then since there are so many awful, poorer than Crystal's art, in these infernal abyss that are the Inferno/Elysion OVAs, allow me to pick and choose a couple of those randos (rando shots that completely obliterate those 2-3 'high quality' shots of Crystal that fans like to claim would need a high budget to produce btw).

And the Elysion OVAs had arguably an even poorer budget than Inferno or Crystal considering most episodes had only 2 main animators in charge.

If you want more samples just ask, there are a couple of hundreds more.

@Memelord_Yoshi I gotta need your screen caps to cleanse the lens of people from the atrocities I just posted above lol

I haven't said anything about Crystal's quality or respecting Naoko Takeuchi, please stop hallucinating. All I'm pointing out is that you excuse or disregard every failure, including multimillionaire losses, in Saint Seiya and Kurumada Productions while criticizing Sailor Moon and PNP for less economically damaging projects. It is an obvious and massive double standard.

In case you hadn't figured it out I was refering to your posts in general and your stance that anyone who cricitizes Takeuchi/the manga/Crystermos is in the wrong and shouldn't.
Anyways~

Hmm... it seems that it's more because of poor management and marketing decisions that Saint Seiya had flops instead of the source material just being bad - something that fans rightfully criticize just like the over exposure of Gold Saints in the mangas.
But I guess you're arguing the opposite?

And of course Sailor Moon would be less economically damaging because they are poor to average budget productions.
All you're proving is that Toei doesn't have enough faith in Sailor Moon to invest in it like in it's other IPs.

 

[kasumigenx]

The problem is that she isn't letting things go as they are.
She is ridiculous in her demands and makes other people's lives more difficult.

She is like this in Stars, she basically ruined Stars manga because the anime script is not what she wanted but she ended up liking the anime stars when it is finished.

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

However that doesn't make her the Queen of the world which she clearly thinks she is with her mind bogging demands.

If someone regards themself as something like that, an often seen reason is that the people in their closest circles regard/treat them like that, so could Osabu be guilty of that?

(I'd always like to have a fanfic about her & the franchise, whether it reflects the truth or not, or just partially does. )

 

[kasumigenx]

If someone regards themself as something like that, an often seen reason is that the people in their closest circles regard/treat them like that, so could Osabu be guilty of that?

(I'd always like to have a fanfic about her & the franchise, whether it reflects the truth or not, or just partially does. )

I think Osabu wants Naoko to copy CLAMP in focusing on the western market, seeing how the Eternal Editions were made.

 

[Hadibou]

Quite the contrary in fact! I wish she never comes out of retirement and stays at home, spending her joyful days drinking Royal Milk Tea while having her nails done.

I was non stop buying this on the 自動販売機 when I was in Japan. But I guess the Princess has servants that bring her her tea and don’t use subways or conbini (she is so busy courageously raising her children and helping her husband, what a holy woman).

 

[Starlight]

I don't know much about Saint Seiya, but I checked out a few clips from Sanctuary and Inferno on YouTube and if the argument is that it has as bad animation or art as Crystal, then that argument is completely invalid. While far from perfect, it looks like a freakin' masterpiece compared to Crystal. It's ludicrous to claim otherwise.

 

[Yamoon]

I don't know much about Saint Seiya, but I checked out a few clips from Sanctuary and Inferno on YouTube and if the argument is that it has as bad animation or art as Crystal, then that argument is completely invalid. While far from perfect, it looks like a freakin' masterpiece compared to Crystal. It's ludicrous to claim otherwise.

Sanctuary has am amazing animation, that's not the point here. We all wish TOEI could produce the same quality as that. Inferno is as same level as Crystal saison 1 and 2 technically speaking at least for the first part (to my judgement), the second part is debatable... but Elysion is absolutely atrocious... (they did even worst after with Saintia Sho). but Elysion was made few years before Crystal... at least they habe a small excuse.

Anyway we're not here, to make a discussion about St Seiya, but once again it shows than TOEI is a cheap production house, or at least don't want to invest that much when they know that they will get money from their licence names anyway...

If you're happy with the way things are and are fan of Naoko Takeuchi the holy mother who's actions are not to be questioned, why can't there be people who are not happy with things and are not fan of her?All you're proving is that Toei doesn't have enough faith in Sailor Moon to invest in it like in it's other IPs.

I get the "I'm not happy with her" and I don't get where you think I adore her lol, because I don't. I just don't get how your mainly obessions with you and your 3-4 other "internet" friends from here are to go on every subject to repeat again and again and again allways the same stuffs about bad how bad the licence is handled and how much you could do better than she can... anyways I don't have to lose time with that fruther. Continue to enjoy by spreading your hatefull comments. I prefer to edit my spicy ones, to avoid any troubles with my account later (but feel free to feel my lovely energy sent to you )... I know from experience with PGSM how it goes with the negative comments. I was here already in 2006 haha.

 

[kasumigenx]

Osano would never admit he did a poor job as an editor or that the manga is rubbish in an interview where he's trying to sell a glorified, angelic image of Naoko Takeuchi, as if she were the reincarnation of the Virgin Mary. Every interview or special event he's been part of has just been about promoting the latest edition of the manga that was being published at the time. Let’s be honest, he gets paid for it. Do you really think Osano promotes the Sailor Moon manga and represents Takeuchi in interviews and events for free, out of the goodness of his heart, without getting anything in return? Come on.

Yeah he is with Naoko because he is paid and because Sailor Moon sold.

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

Yeah he is with Naoko because he is paid and because Sailor Moon sold.

Yeah, they're on the same boat. lol

 

[kasumigenx]

Yeah, they're on the same boat. lol

I think Osabu was a suitor of Naoko as well prior to Togashi since Sato used him as a base of one of his characters.

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

I think Osabu was a suitor of Naoko as well prior to Togashi since Sato used him as a base of one of his characters.

As I've said here just lately, I'd like to see a (juicy ) fanfic about Takeuchi & the franchise.

 

[HappyMoon]

I think Osabu was a suitor of Naoko as well prior to Togashi since Sato used him as a base of one of his characters.

Yeah, there's no way on earth that the guy is straight.

 

[SailorChanel]

One thing I’m confused about with Naoko she had more control over pgsm and sera myu. And they are so well thought out with plots and stories and character development . So I don’t know what happened with crystal and the movies.

 

[kasumigenx]

Yeah, there's no way on earth that the guy is straight.

He is clearly not Naoko's type, if he was not attracted to Naoko, he might be stricter to her.

 

[Starlight]

One thing I’m confused about with Naoko she had more control over pgsm and sera myu

Except, she didn't. With PGSM, she was part of the selection committee that picked the main cast, wrote lyrics to a couple of songs, and designed some items and costumes (Sailor Luna, Princess Sailor Moon). She had no involvement with the story or the scripts. With the Sera Myu, she wrote dedications and contributed illustrations to the souvenir pamphlet books. That's it. To my knowledge, she didn't even design any of the original characters or write lyrics to songs.

 

[tux67]

It's about time the fandom realized just how trash the Stars arc is. It's quite unbelievable that so many back in the day had Stars on par with S. What an insult.

I'll gladly watch Eternal over Cosmos any day of the week as well. Eternal obviously has its share of problems, but the plot is easy to follow and the movie actually features the characters we know and love. Cosmos/Stars is just a nonsensical clusterfuck from every single angle. Cosmos has superior visuals and music, but that's about it.

 

[kasumigenx]

It's about time the fandom realized just how trash the Stars arc is. It's quite unbelievable that so many back in the day had Stars on par with S. What an insult.

I'll gladly watch Eternal over Cosmos any day of the week as well. Eternal obviously has its share of problems, but the plot is easy to follow and the movie actually features the characters we know and love. Cosmos/Stars is just a nonsensical clusterfuck from every single angle. Cosmos has superior visuals and music, but that's about it.

It was rushed and has production issues in the 90s anime and the manga and Cosmos adapted the issues of the manga.

 

[Late to the Game]

It's about time the fandom realized just how trash the Stars arc is. It's quite unbelievable that so many back in the day had Stars on par with S. What an insult.

I'll gladly watch Eternal over Cosmos any day of the week as well. Eternal obviously has its share of problems, but the plot is easy to follow and the movie actually features the characters we know and love. Cosmos/Stars is just a nonsensical clusterfuck from every single angle. Cosmos has superior visuals and music, but that's about it.

You mean anime Stars, manga Stars or both? I'd love to read your thoughts if you could expand on that.

Anyway, I've got a theory. Most fans have gotten into the franchise in the late 90s/early 00s with the anime and only moved on to the manga later - and, as Sailor Moon was the gate opener for manga and anime for many of us, I suspect for most fans Sailor Moon was one of the first, if not the first manga they've ever read. Add to the mix the fact that most fans were probably in their early teens and easily impressionable back then, and it all starts to make sense. I know I would have found the manga to be more "mature" and thought that "Naoko so daring and she was not afraid to go all the way" if I had read the manga when I was, I don't know, 12. But it's hard for me to buy it now. And for a long time anime Stars was, for fans in the anglosphere at least, the hyped, "forbidden" season, so maybe people just wanted it to be as great as their expectations.

But what do I know? Apparently discussing what you perceive as problems in the franchise or how the franchise is handled is akin to being bitterly obsessive and hateful...

 

[kasumigenx]

I know I would have found the manga to be more "mature" and thought that "Naoko so daring and she was not afraid to go all the way"

That is because she did not kill off the lesbians in the Infinity Arc but that might be Ikuhara who pushed Naoko to do it.