What if DiC/Cloverway had dubbed Stars back in the day?

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Aug 16, 2014
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#21
I mean what about the episode where Fish Eye rips off her shirt (which was in the edited dub)?

What about the episode where Serena and Mina chase after a dude only to find out he’s a she?

What about the episode where Chad is jealous of Raye’s closeness to a female?

What about the episodes with blood?


Sailor Moon and its ilk only seems overly sanitized because it was censored from an existing Japanese program. But again it really wasn’t any more sanitized than your average program at the time. If the DiC/Cloverway dub was an original program no one would be saying “Wow this show was heavily censored!” There’s an extremely biased perspective.

Even Batman the animated series, a show that has a reputation for having much lax censorship still had fairly hefty restrictions.


Even if Him licking the Professor might raise an eyebrow he’s still not really human. It’s not even in the same ballpark as a character like fish eye who regularly crossed dressed to attract and seduce men and looked human.

When HIM licks the professor its just some weird devil crab thing with a gender ambiguous voice being a weirdo. When Fish Eyes does his things its a gay man being gay and therefore not acceptable by western standard in the 2000s due to Joyce Lovegood types.
Also it was cn,they were a little more relaxed than Duc was
 

Umino

Lumen Cinereum
Jun 6, 2006
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#22
I’m drawing a blank of a western cartoon that had characters smoking anything other than a tobacco pipe unless it was some weird psa thing.
You most definitely see smoking in old Chuck Jones and Tex Avery cartoons. Definitely remember an episode of Dexter's Lab that had a waitress with a cigarette. Smoking was seen in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, which aired uncut on Cartoon Network plenty of times.

But this whole double standard of anime vs western cartoons? It’s basically non-existent.
It is, but okay. Even the handling of nudity and violence was like this. Anime characters were almost never allowed to be seen bathing nude, not even implied nudity. There were scenes in Tenchi Muyo where you couldn't see anything passed the shoulders, but Cartoon Network would still digitally paint bikini straps to create an illusion they weren't nude. Sailor Moon was probably one of the few, if not the only anime back then that allowed characters to bathe naked.

Because it was comparatively more realistic and humanlike than I R Baboon’s


Hmm... doesn't look very realistic to me, but okay.

It’s a weird thing to for cartoon network broadcast standards make a distinction about but its not an anime vs western cartoon double standard. You don’t see Realistically drawn human butts on western kids cartoons either.
I've definitely seen plenty of Western animated kids films do this, and air on TV unedited. The Little Mermaid, Prince of Egypt, Road to El Dorado to name a few.

Keep in mind we're going back 10+ years. I'm sure things have changed now. I don't even think anime is really edited anymore on TV.
 

blondibear_17

Luna Crescens
Mar 3, 2017
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#24
I think it's stupid and I agree it shouldn't be a big deal but I still think that back in the day, as in, the early 00's, DiC/Cloverway would have probably done something about the gender-bending. I know at the least, the Italian dub felt it necessary to change it. Nowadays though, people are a lot more open-minded and I think Stars could probably even be shown on Cartoon Network, hypothetically speaking, without any rewrites regarding the Starlights.

Also for whatever reason, sometimes it seemed like American animated series were able to get away with more than dubbed anime did back then.
You most definitely see smoking in old Chuck Jones and Tex Avery cartoons. Definitely remember an episode of Dexter's Lab that had a waitress with a cigarette. Smoking was seen in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, which aired uncut on Cartoon Network plenty of times.



It is, but okay. Even the handling of nudity and violence was like this. Anime characters were almost never allowed to be seen bathing nude, not even implied nudity. There were scenes in Tenchi Muyo where you couldn't see anything passed the shoulders, but Cartoon Network would still digitally paint bikini straps to create an illusion they weren't nude. Sailor Moon was probably one of the few, if not the only anime back then that allowed characters to bathe naked.





Hmm... doesn't look very realistic to me, but okay.



I've definitely seen plenty of Western animated kids films do this, and air on TV unedited. The Little Mermaid, Prince of Egypt, Road to El Dorado to name a few.

Keep in mind we're going back 10+ years. I'm sure things have changed now. I don't even think anime is really edited anymore on TV.
I was gonna say though that going from Tex Avery era to th 90's to even now the standards for what is and isn't acceptable is probably hugely different. Even shows like Dexter's lab had things cut out in later airings if it was deemed unacceptable later. I think finding the ways to get around the rules makes the difference like if the characters are not human you can get away with much more violence or almost nudity than if they were not. Like in Dragon Ball Z people can lose appendages with oozing blood and get holes shot in them because oh the blood is purple or green and it's an alien so it doesn't count.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#25
You most definitely see smoking in old Chuck Jones and Tex Avery cartoons.
Older cartoons had less restrictions with things like that.

Definitely remember an episode of Dexter's Lab that had a waitress with a cigarette.
I don’t recall so I’m not sure of the context. Regardless I will say the Dic dub did show a cigarette in the park episode. They only removed the actual shot of the cigarette in the offending parties mouth.

Smoking was seen in Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, which aired uncut on Cartoon Network plenty of times.
It was also a PG movie that aired later on night. Not a Y7-FV tv series during the day. You didn’t see smoking in the series proper.


It is, but okay.
You want to believe that is true but okay. At best kids anime tended to be handled by wusses (4Kids, Funimation to an extent, Saban) but there’s pretty much no evidence that broadcasters like Cartoon Network had a double standard against Japanese animation. Just that standards of censorship were often inconsistent and almost arbitrary.

I could point out that hey Toonami allowed Dragon Ball Z to show blood provided it wasn’t moving or even once and a while allowed them to violate their “No saying the world Kill policy”

Or how I’m pretty sure the words die and maybe kill were allowed to show up in Justice League but Teen Titans apparently couldn’t even say die or death to the point a character couldn’t use his comic book alias of Deathstroke.


[quote
Even the handling of nudity and violence was like this. Anime characters were almost never allowed to be seen bathing nude, not even implied nudity. There were scenes in Tenchi Muyo where you couldn't see anything passed the shoulders, but Cartoon Network would still digitally paint bikini straps to create an illusion they weren't nude. Sailor Moon was probably one of the few, if not the only anime back then that allowed characters to bathe naked.
[/quote]

Tenchi Muyo seemed to be the only example of a show anime or otherwise that went to the lengths it did to avoid implied nudity.




Hmm... doesn't look very realistic to me, but okay.
Comparatively being the operative word. It’s pretty obvious that lemure is drawn much more human like than I R Baboon (the latter being a cartoon Baboon and all)

Outside of the exaggerated facial expression and tail it could pretty much pass for human. Again you wouldn’t find ass nudity on relatively proportional human characters on Western cartoon shows like Jackie Chan Adventures or Batman the Animated Series or Spider-man The Animated Series or Static Shock.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#26
I was gonna say though that going from Tex Avery era to th 90's to even now the standards for what is and isn't acceptable is probably hugely different. Even shows like Dexter's lab had things cut out in later airings if it was deemed unacceptable later. I think finding the ways to get around the rules makes the difference like if the characters are not human you can get away with much more violence or almost nudity than if they were not. Like in Dragon Ball Z people can lose appendages with oozing blood and get holes shot in them because oh the blood is purple or green and it's an alien so it doesn't count.
Pretty much this.

I do want to add when Funimation went through Saban to get the show syndicated the rule was pretty much no blood unless it came out of an animal or alien that doesn’t remotely look human. Piccolo who doesn’t look the least bit human but is close enough in Saban’s eyes had to have his red blood (the Namekian purple blood didn’t exist yet) colored green which somehow made it okay. The word die and kill was said a few times in the Raditz episodes and then never again.

Then when the show moved to Toonami and had much more lax censorship realistic human blood was okay as long as it wasn’t oozing. They could say die and every once in a while kill.
 
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Jun 30, 2010
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#27
I agree with some of the people in this thread. If Cloverway had dubbed, then I think the Starlights would either be girls full-time or their "male" forms would be considered magical disguises/illusions. Really, the gender switching part wouldn't have been that big of a deal. As BlueMoon mentioned, in many instances, Cloverway through their rewrites actually increased lesbian subtext by having everyone but the Inners become instantly aware that Amara was a girl.

However, it's also important to note that while Cartoon Network was largely responsible for whole "cousins" fiasco to begin with...if Sailor Moon were not airing on Cartoon Network but on a broadcast station/block, it would have been subject to even more censorship. A lot of the newer examples such as PPG and I.M. Weasel are due to the shows airing on Cartoon Network, not due to broadcast standards.

I'm more interested in how the plan would have worked out with the clash against Galaxia.
 

Neo King Rose

Usagi's Rose
Staff member
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Sep 13, 2008
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#28
it would be interesting to see
however the Starlights would be censored I could see the starlights form having a visual edit to not show as much skin
and some random excuse/change the gender transformation

cloverway wanted to be closer to the original with their dub but obviously still censored some things so I would see them pulling that kind of stunt and Dic would be worse
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#29
I know this is deviating a little from this thread topic...but part of the problem with giving answers is that as the old dub wore on, it undeniably got more accurate and closer to the original version. Even the dub of the "lost" episodes was a lot closer in terms of storyline than the episodes that preceded it. By the time one would get to Stars, it would be nearly the same except for the occasional error.

I've mentioned this before, but I'm interested in what the entire series would have been like had the series been dubbed in the same general style as the first 65 episodes, where much of it was made up, but Optimum were still bound to try to maintain continuity with the previous episodes.

For instance, when the Sailor Animamates create Phages, what if instead of just a Phage being a natural byproduct of an extracted Star Seed of a normal person that instead it be more explicit that the negative energy causes an ordinary human to change into an "Nega Scout," similar to but obviously different from the Rainbow Crystal search?
 
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Sep 9, 2011
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#30
Some episodes of S/SuperS were very faithfully adapted. Others (mostly the ones written by Lisa Lumby-Richards) were very much not. I'm sure that would continue into Stars.

I'm not sure who's to blame for the whole "cousin" thing. I've always heard it was Optimum being very cautious, although I've also heard that Nicole Thuault wanted to keep their relationship intact. Cartoon Network and YTV may have had something in their broadcast standards, Cloverway told Optimum to follow it, and one of the writers (probably Lisa Lumby-Richards) likely came up with the actual cousins idea.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#31
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Some episodes of S/SuperS were very faithfully adapted. Others (mostly the ones written by Lisa Lumby-Richards) were very much not. I'm sure that would continue into Stars.
Even with the more liberally adapted episodes the general feel was a lot closer than the DiC episodes. Part of that was keeping the Japanese score and SFX but also dropping the Negaverse (which happened in the final 17 episodes of R), sometimes keeping Japanese surnames for characters of the day, less editing of Japanese characters etc.

Sort of how Funimation’s dub of Dragon Ball still had dialog that was nowhere near what the Japanese version was saying at times and changes for the hell of it it was, overall, much closer to the Japanese version than their dub of DBZ.


I'm not sure who's to blame for the whole "cousin" thing. I've always heard it was Optimum being very cautious, although I've also heard that Nicole Thuault wanted to keep their relationship intact. Cartoon Network and YTV may have had something in their broadcast standards,
A gay character in Outlaw Star had his sexuality edited out and in Tenchi Universe an episode where Ayeka and Ryoko “almost” kiss and get lovey dovey after getting hit with a love arrow was edited on Toonami to them just professing friendship instead of just love and not almost kissing.

It was almost certainly Toonami’s decision to edit out the lesbianism and homosexuality/crossdressing in S and SuperS. The cousins thing was probably Optimum’s choice


and one of the writers (probably Lisa Lumby-Richards) likely came up with the actual cousins idea.
It was very likely a decision made above the staff writers like Janice Sonoski.
 
Sep 9, 2011
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#32
I'm sure both Cartoon Network and YTV had the standard. They did broadcast S/SuperS basically simultaneously, and I'm sure both had say in how the dub turned out. I know they also had a Tenchi Muyo character (Seiryo) completely redubbed with another actor (from John DeMita to Robert Klein) in Episode 13 because he sounded too much like a stereotypical gay man, and they also stopped airing an episode of Dial M For Monkey (a supporting segment of Dexter's Lab) because the villain (the Silver Spooner, voiced by Rob Paulsen) was also obviously supposed to represent a (very, very, very stereotypical) gay man.
 
Apr 9, 2019
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#33
I'm not sure who's to blame for the whole "cousin" thing. I've always heard it was Optimum being very cautious, although I've also heard that Nicole Thuault wanted to keep their relationship intact. Cartoon Network and YTV may have had something in their broadcast standards, Cloverway told Optimum to follow it, and one of the writers (probably Lisa Lumby-Richards) likely came up with the actual cousins idea.
It's funny, when the S dub first started airing, I remember watching the first few episodes and thinking "Holy [BLEEP], did they keep their relationship intact???" because for the first couple of episodes, it was more or less unchanged (albeit with them displaying more hetero attraction than in the original). That is, until the Love Contest episode, in which Ami (I think it is) blurts out "They're cousins!" and it's all downhill from there.
 
Likes: Umino
Sep 6, 2014
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#34
It's funny, when the S dub first started airing, I remember watching the first few episodes and thinking "Holy [BLEEP], did they keep their relationship intact???" because for the first couple of episodes, it was more or less unchanged (albeit with them displaying more hetero attraction than in the original). That is, until the Love Contest episode, in which Ami (I think it is) blurts out "They're cousins!" and it's all downhill from there.
I actually think the first few episodes of the S dub handled the relationship in the best possible way. Michelle expressing some heterosexual attraction doesn’t mean she can’t be bi but it would be enough I think to get most homophobes off the show’s back. They evidently had no issue with Chad think Raye and Amara were an item while being aware of Amara’s sex. Had they not gone with the cousin thing and just referred to them as best friends and partners (in the they work together as Sailor Soldiers sense not in the romantic sense) and let Michelle express some hetero sex attraction every now and then I think that would have been a reasonable enough compromise.

To be honest as a kid I wasn’t aware we were suppose to believe they were actual cousins despite how often the Optimum dub kept referring to them as such. I thought they were just suppose to be honorary cousins or something
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#35
"Cousin" can actually be used as a term of intimacy, friendship, or familiarity, so calling them "cousins" could have been fine...if they hadn't specifically described them as being related in some episodes.
 

Umino

Lumen Cinereum
Jun 6, 2006
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#40
It's funny, when the S dub first started airing, I remember watching the first few episodes and thinking "Holy [BLEEP], did they keep their relationship intact???" because for the first couple of episodes, it was more or less unchanged (albeit with them displaying more hetero attraction than in the original). That is, until the Love Contest episode, in which Ami (I think it is) blurts out "They're cousins!" and it's all downhill from there.
They also left Fisheye's gender up in the air for like, 10 episodes. Tiger's Eye even calls him "dude", and in a later episode Hawk's Eye calls him "Mr. Happy".