Why does it always has to be about the princess/ main heroine?

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sapphire91

Aurorae Lunares
Jul 6, 2018
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#1
While I put this here and make it about Sailor Moon, it is actually inspired by recent trend of trying to insert certain political views in modern entertainment, while bashing on older works for the lack of appropriateness. I have stumbled on criticism over Sailor Moon as character in both manga and anime on how Usagi is powerless whiny brat and wait on others to help her, or how Princess Serenity is basically weak and selfish , or how some old generation Disney princess are not active in their own films. To an extent I can agree - Usagi whines a lot, Princess Serenity commits suicide instead of helping her people, Disney's Cinderella keep up with abuse, while singing and talking to mice and Aurora did nothing and let other people decide her faith. But these all are getting criticism for the main heroine not being up to feminist standards, while glossing over other powerful female characters, nobody seems to care enough and focus on the main heroine for not being ... certain adjective inserted. While Usagi is at times weak and indecisive, the other senshi are the one that usually help her. Aren't they women? Tuxedo Mask is mostly mean of support and not power and they both support each other. The girls are what Usagi isn't at times - but nobody cares as they are not the princess/ main heroine. While Princess Serenity was weak, Queen Serenity was this magnificent, powerful queen, but it is not enough feminism as she is not the main heroine . In Cinderella we have a girl that is basically forced to live in certain times that she cannot really do much, while we have the powerful woman in the form of the step-mother. Lady Tremaine is the villain, but she is also a woman that never married for a third time to secure herself and instead tried her best to give herself and her daughters dignified lives - true she abuses her step-daughter but in the historical context she is way braver than most women - they would have simply married again and bring a man to take care of them. But nobody says this as she is not the main heroine and she is a villain ( from the point of view of Cinderella). While Aurora in Sleeping Beauty is a passive heroine - we have both Maleficent the villainess being ressourcefull and goes against a man of power the King, or the three fairies that, while clumsy, save the day by taking stuff in their own hands and basically saves the day? My point is a lot of people point fingers at shows and movies in the past for having weak heroines, while glossing over other female heroines that have all sorts of different power? Why does it have to be all about the main heroine? Or is it because they look for one specific kind of power (bicepses and golf clubs ;)) and ignore all the different kinds of it?
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#2
Princess Serenity was a bland and weak character, yes. In PGSM she was a manaic.

But I 100% disagree Usagi was weak.

She was always willing to put love and trust into ppl(like encouraging that pianist to find his love), she is the reason why the senshi could work together as a team/friends. Before Ami showed up she got to use both her strength and her wits to fight those monsters since they always take disguise/scheme.

Her weak moments was to drag her to the ground to prevent her being too flawless and let other senshi got things to do. The DK arc did so well to let other senshi make noble sacrifice and let Usagi grow through the process, then take the last fight together. The senshi mostly didn't fight with her because she was the princess, but because she's Usagi, their most important companion.

Could the other senshi got more to do? Sure, I also think they should have more family life/romance written, the anime did a better job than the manga. But Usagi is not a weak character at all. The more I grow up and look back, the more I like her.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#3
You know Ivreally dislike how feminist gets on these stories for not being progressive .They typically ignore the situations, and time period they were in.
Let's talk about them
Cinderella
Cinderella's dad died, had no money, or any other family.She had no where to go.Acourse she stay with her terrible family.It was in 15 century.Lot of jobs we're family owned.It was a need for survival.


Sleeping Beauty
There wasn't a lot Aurora could do.Aurora was raised by faries pretending to be human.To hide from an evil queen, and was cursed.She was screwed .Either way she needed to be save.That dosen't make it bad not every heroine needs to be a hero.Its okay to be saved by people sometimes.She was save by the prince, and assisted by the faries.

Sailor Moon
It's okay to have heronirs that our flawed.Why her suicide was terrible.Lets look at this.Before her kingdom was gone, and her boyfriend was killed.There was nothing.#She over run with grief, and thought there was no hope.
It's okay if characters have flaws,weaknesses.
 
Likes: SILVER

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#4
You know Ivreally dislike how feminist gets on these stories for not being progressive .They typically ignore the situations, and time period they were in.

Sailor Moon
It's okay to have heronirs that our flawed.Why her suicide was terrible.Lets look at this.Before her kingdom was gone, and her boyfriend was killed.There was nothing.#She over run with grief, and thought there was no hope.
It's okay if characters have flaws,weaknesses.
True, many strong "woke" story makes the heroine Mary Sue and insufferable.

Princess Serenity was meant to be a weak character. She is the reason why the kingdom fall.

And Usagi was the reason why the world was saved. It was meant to show the growth.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#5
Actually, many people do point out the female antagonists have agency and power. The problem is that they're punished for that agency, so it's hard to look at them positively when the very story frames their actions as bad.

Even people who are anti-feminist admit that the whole problem of trying to examine these figures in a positive light is that it simply reinforces the same binary dynamic. You can flip the story and make the villain the one you should root for, but it's still the same Madaonna-Whore complex.

Look at our very own Queen Beryl as an example. This is a woman who brokered a deal with the devil to become not only an immensely powerful sorceress but the ruler of a kingdom. You can look at her as a hero, but it doesn't change the face that in the end, she dies. Her jealousy is shown as a flaw that undoes her.

It doesn't matter that she might be in the right in that it actually is Endymion, a prince of the Earth, who is being swayed by a non-human princess who lives on the moon. She ends up losing. You can't look up to that.
 

MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#6
Princess Serenity was a bland and weak character, yes. In PGSM she was a manaic.

But I 100% disagree Usagi was weak.

She was always willing to put love and trust into ppl(like encouraging that pianist to find his love), she is the reason why the senshi could work together as a team/friends. Before Ami showed up she got to use both her strength and her wits to fight those monsters since they always take disguise/scheme.

Her weak moments was to drag her to the ground to prevent her being too flawless and let other senshi got things to do. The DK arc did so well to let other senshi make noble sacrifice and let Usagi grow through the process, then take the last fight together. The senshi mostly didn't fight with her because she was the princess, but because she's Usagi, their most important companion.

Could the other senshi got more to do? Sure, I also think they should have more family life/romance written, the anime did a better job than the manga. But Usagi is not a weak character at all. The more I grow up and look back, the more I like her.
Princess Serenity is not weak and alot Princess Serenity and Usagi are the same character, the same person with the same personality. Likewise shows are about Princesses because many girls wish to be Princesses. Likewise Usagi evolves from a crybaby to an effective and capable leader. Now if you want to criticize how in the manga alot of the girls were just made to be glorified meat shields to Usagi and their wishes, love lives and dreams don't matter (with the exception of Haruka and Michiru for some reason) then we can have that discussion. There is nothing in Sailor Moon that I ever found to be misogynist. Quite the contrary I could say it is more misandrist then misogynist but even then I don't think that. Also Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask saved each other quite often. Hell the reason why woke comics in the West don't sell is because for one they desexualize and masculinize their female characters but also turn them into unlikable Mary Sues and this state of feminism is the reason that I do not consider myself a feminist anymore even though I am a Feminine Essentialist. The backlash to feminism is because of people like this. A bunch of borderline personality disorder blue hairs who simply hate femininity as much as any misogynist and wish to talk about nonsense issues vs. real life examples of misogyny. You know like certain countries, religions that mutilate women's genitals, force them to veil, have sex slavery etc.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#7
Princess Serenity is not weak and alot Princess Serenity and Usagi are the same character, the same person with the same personality. Likewise shows are about Princesses because many girls wish to be Princesses. Likewise Usagi evolves from a crybaby to an effective and capable leader. Now if you want to criticize how in the manga alot of the girls were just made to be glorified meat shields to Usagi and their wishes, love lives and dreams don't matter (with the exception of Haruka and Michiru for some reason) then we can have that discussion. There is nothing in Sailor Moon that I ever found to be misogynist. Quite the contrary I could say it is more misandrist then misogynist but even then I don't think that. Also Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask saved each other quite often. Hell the reason why woke comics in the West don't sell is because for one they desexualize and masculinize their female characters but also turn them into unlikable Mary Sues and this state of feminism is the reason that I do not consider myself a feminist anymore even though I am a Feminine Essentialist. The backlash to feminism is because of people like this. A bunch of borderline personality disorder blue hairs who simply hate femininity as much as any misogynist and wish to talk about nonsense issues vs. real life examples of misogyny. You know like certain countries, religions that mutilate women's genitals, force them to veil, have sex slavery etc.
Princess Serenity in the manga chose to commit suicide when her kingdom was at war, and let her lover die in vain.

In the anime she was not much different, all we saw is her love of the prince, wasn't able to do anything to help fight evil.

Usagi was not like that, she's always willing to fight for the great good.

Agree with everything else.
 

MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#8
Princess Serenity in the manga chose to commit suicide when her kingdom was at war, and let her lover die in vain.

In the anime she was not much different, all we saw is her love of the prince, wasn't able to do anything to help fight evil.

Usagi was not like that, she's always willing to fight for the great good.

Agree with everything else.
Sailor Moon in the manga also committed suicide when she was forced to kill Endymion due to Queen Metalia's control over him so it wasn't much different. Really the 90s anime made her more strong in this sense in the manga but not having her commit suicide when her lover died.
 

sapphire91

Aurorae Lunares
Jul 6, 2018
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#9
I can see this as character development which in the manga is constant for Usagi. By Infinity arc she is already a self-awared warrior. But it unnatural to expect her to be like this since the very first battle, one that brings her past life experience. The princess was not a warrior. Usagi was used to be a clumsy unreliable girl. They both repeated their mistakes. But it is natural. We all gradually mature. I can actually argue that the girls are just shields in the manga. While they are very loyal, they never gave up their dreams. They were trying their best to do both. Only their enemies tried to make them feel this way.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#10
Sailor Moon in the manga also committed suicide when she was forced to kill Endymion due to Queen Metalia's control over him so it wasn't much different. Really the 90s anime made her more strong in this sense in the manga but not having her commit suicide when her lover died.
Yes, but she was still able to kill Endymion and fight DK forces before that, then she had become more and more brave. It's still much better than Serenity, who literally did nothing to protect her kingdom, she left pretty much everything to her mother and Inner Four.

PGSM brought it to a new level, Princess Serenity tried to destroy the world when her love died.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
134
112
165
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#11
Actually, many people do point out the female antagonists have agency and power. The problem is that they're punished for that agency, so it's hard to look at them positively when the very story frames their actions as bad.

Even people who are anti-feminist admit that the whole problem of trying to examine these figures in a positive light is that it simply reinforces the same binary dynamic. You can flip the story and make the villain the one you should root for, but it's still the same Madaonna-Whore complex.

Look at our very own Queen Beryl as an example. This is a woman who brokered a deal with the devil to become not only an immensely powerful sorceress but the ruler of a kingdom. You can look at her as a hero, but it doesn't change the face that in the end, she dies. Her jealousy is shown as a flaw that undoes her.

It doesn't matter that she might be in the right in that it actually is Endymion, a prince of the Earth, who is being swayed by a non-human princess who lives on the moon. She ends up losing. You can't look up to that.
Beryl was a weak character even if we put aside good or evil.

All she cared about was love (and power), that's very generic and vague. She never showed any human emotion towards anyone other than Endymion. It makes her very shallow. PGSM tried to improve a little bit but not much.
 

SILVER

Luna Crescens
Jan 7, 2014
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Dark Kingdom
#12
Yes, but she was still able to kill Endymion and fight DK forces before that, then she had become more and more brave. It's still much better than Serenity, who literally did nothing to protect her kingdom, she left pretty much everything to her mother and Inner Four.

PGSM brought it to a new level, Princess Serenity tried to destroy the world when her love died.
That was such a good twist and they made Princess Serenity twenty times more interesting by giving her a Sailor form.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#13
That was such a good twist and they made Princess Serenity twenty times more interesting by giving her a Sailor form.
True and I like it, too. It also added more to her character while not in a likeable way.

I am in a weird position, being a huge fan of Usagi/Sailor Moon but never a fan of Princess Serenity of last life.
 
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MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#14
Again in pretty much every canon but PGSM Usagi is the same person as Princess Serenity. Also even if she did defeat alot of the Dark Kingdom troops she still committed suicide after Mamoru's death even in this life. She did this even though Queen Metalia was still active and very much would destroy the Earth causing the Inners to basically give their life force to revive her. Also as for Princess Serenity in the 90s anime, manga, Crystal Princess Serenity didn't really have the power to do anything to stop Beryl or the Dark Kingdom. She was just a princess then. Her Mother Queen Serenity was the bearer of the Silver Crystal and Princess Serenity never was Sailor Moon in the Silver Millennium. If anything her Mother was the closest thing to a Moon Senshi as even though she at that point atleast didn't transform into Sailor Moon she was still the bearer of the Silver Crystal. Usagi only became the bearer of the Silver Crystal after she was reincarnated in this life.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#15
Again in pretty much every canon but PGSM Usagi is the same person as Princess Serenity. Also even if she did defeat alot of the Dark Kingdom troops she still committed suicide after Mamoru's death even in this life. She did this even though Queen Metalia was still active and very much would destroy the Earth causing the Inners to basically give their life force to revive her. Also as for Princess Serenity in the 90s anime, manga, Crystal Princess Serenity didn't really have the power to do anything to stop Beryl or the Dark Kingdom. She was just a princess then. Her Mother Queen Serenity was the bearer of the Silver Crystal and Princess Serenity never was Sailor Moon in the Silver Millennium. If anything her Mother was the closest thing to a Moon Senshi as even though she at that point atleast didn't transform into Sailor Moon she was still the bearer of the Silver Crystal. Usagi only became the bearer of the Silver Crystal after she was reincarnated in this life.
She is Princess Serenity's reincarnation with some memories, not the same person. Just like the Inner Four.

She has the power to use the Silver Crystal's power to help, even Chibiusa could use it I mean.

Nor did she show much awareness of Beryl brainwashing ppl and tried to destroy the Moon Kingdom by breaking Earth and Moon's peace.
 

MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#16
She is Princess Serenity's reincarnation with some memories, not the same person. Just like the Inner Four.

She has the power to use the Silver Crystal's power to help, even Chibiusa could use it I mean.

Nor did she show much awareness of Beryl brainwashing ppl and tried to destroy the Moon Kingdom by breaking Earth and Moon's peace.
She is the same person she has the same personality, same memories etc. She is like the Inners the same person as her past self ditto for Mamoru and the Outers.

Also she didn't have the Silver Crystal on her. Her Mother Queen Serenity had the Silver Crystal on her Mother so what do you want her to do take it from her Mother who is probably more experienced at using it and use it for herself. It didn't end too well for Chibiusa so it might not end well for Princess Serenity.

Also Princess Serenity was the Princess at the time. She was not yet the Queen and like Usagi she was in many instances shown to shirk her responsibilites and act child like and spoiled. So again what do you expect her to do?
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#17
She is the same person she has the same personality, same memories etc. She is like the Inners the same person as her past self ditto for Mamoru and the Outers.

Also she didn't have the Silver Crystal on her. Her Mother Queen Serenity had the Silver Crystal on her Mother so what do you want her to do take it from her Mother who is probably more experienced at using it and use it for herself. It didn't end too well for Chibiusa so it might not end well for Princess Serenity.

Also Princess Serenity was the Princess at the time. She was not yet the Queen and like Usagi she was in many instances shown to shirk her responsibilites and act child like and spoiled. So again what do you expect her to do?
No, Princess Serenity doesn't have the goofy personality at all. She was good at things like dance, she never showed much care to other ppl as well. Other than their love to Mamoru they are quite different.

She could go to ask for it. Chibiusa was a child and still helped in the fight a lot. So was Chibiusa, despite being so immature, she was still able to help and wanted to help her mother.
 

sapphire91

Aurorae Lunares
Jul 6, 2018
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#18
No, Princess Serenity doesn't have the goofy personality at all. She was good at things like dance, she never showed much care to other ppl as well. Other than their love to Mamoru they are quite different.

She could go to ask for it. Chibiusa was a child and still helped in the fight a lot. So was Chibiusa, despite being so immature, she was still able to help and wanted to help her mother.
i think they are talking abiut the manga, and you are reffering to the old anime and we barely seen her in it. From the manga she was a bit inresponsible and it is clear she had almost if not the same personality.