Would it have been better for the 90's anime to follow the manga with filler?

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DREWdesu

Luna Nova
Sep 24, 2008
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#1
As we all know the manga and the anime/s are both completely different products that follow the same story with some or many divergences from Naoko's plot.

In Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z the story was known to have plenty of filler in the anime adaptation whilst also adapting the plot of manga with minor graphical changes and inclusion to certain anime-only characters in the story once Akira Toriyama and Toei were able to catch up with one another.

With Sailor Moon however, the story starts similarly enough however the plots tend to diverge which was evident with the changes in the end of each series. Now this had me thinking, if the 90's anime followed the plot of the manga but also included filler which didn't affect much of the plot (i.e: change the reason why Black Lady reverts back to Chibi-Usa) would it have been a better alternative for the franchise? There were some changes that I wasn't to happy about but it was mainly due to the deadlines between Naoko and Toei (SAILOR COSMOS / LIGHT OF HOPE I'M LOOKING AT YOU!)

What are your thoughts?
 
May 31, 2009
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#2
No, because most of the changes were for the better, in my opinion. Naoko is not a very good storyteller and thankfully the people working on the anime were much more talented and were able to significantly improve on her mediocre work.
 

Clow

Luna Crescens
Jul 29, 2012
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#3
Plus, there is no way TOEI could have known what Naoko intended to do. The manga was being written while the anime was being aired. There were fillers. Arcs that don't exist in the manga. All of these extra episodes or fillers exist because Naoko needed time to finish her story.

I don't think TOEI could have done much with Sailor Cosmos as a character because the manga ended *after* the anime. So TOEI came up with the idea of "the light of hope."
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#4
If they had tried to stay as close to the manga as possible there would have been even more filler and padding. So no

The Dragon Ball manga started in 1984 two years before the anime debuted and look at how much filler we were getting by Z
 

rgveda99

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 5, 2009
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#5
For the first 3 seasons its a no.

For the 4th season its a yes.

For the last season not really sure.:mameshiba: Since there's no phages then they might use undead interstellar Sailors? :cthulhu:
Or may be 20 or 30 plus Metal Senshi like Titanium Kero and Pewter Fox? :pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball::pokeball:
 
Likes: Mitsukara

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#6
People always cite the manga's being written at the same time the anime was airing as the reason the anime had to do "filler" and why its plot diverged at times, but... There was no reason for that to be the case? I don't see why the show had to keep airing nonstop, a new episode every week just about, for five years. They should have taken breaks between each season. I don't think it would have hurt the show's ratings, and with breaks and that extra time, they could have plotted things out more carefully and made a more interesting, less formulaic show. I think that's the biggest weakness of the anime: it's often incredibly lazy and cookie-cutter. The manga didn't do a great job with pacing, exploring all the ideas it raised, and developing its non-Moon Family characters very well, but at least it was always interesting and never by-the-numbers.

For the first 3 seasons its a no.

For the 4th season its a yes.

For the last season not really sure.:mameshiba: Since there's no phages then they might use undead interstellar Sailors? :cthulhu:
I think Season 1 is really strong as is. I'd have liked to have seen more about Silver Millennium, but that's a fairly minor gripe.

Season 2 is more of a mixed bag. It definitely did a better job of fleshing out the villains, but otherwise I wish it had stayed closer to what Naoko came up with. That is to say, they should have included Diana, Chibiusa should have become Sailor Chibi Moon at the end, and Sailor Pluto should have had a much bigger role.

Season 3 is fine... I just don't like how unbalanced the sub-arcs are. (A ton of Kaolinite episodes, a ton of Eudial episodes, a ton of Mimete episodes, now let's rush through the last three/four of the Witches 5) The "finale" (such as it were) is a dud, and being followed by two superfluous episodes only makes it more so.

Season 4 suffers from repeating the formula of S (MOTD targets VOTD to extract Object in hopes of finding Goal) for way too many episodes without the overarching story making much/any progress, and also continues S's trend of largely ignoring the supporting characters established in the first two seasons. I think SuperS should have taken R's approach: instead of targeting random victims each episode to extract their Dream Mirrors in search of Pegasus, the Amazon Trio/Quartet should have used the Lemures to spread nightmare energy around different parts of Tokyo in order to turn the city into an area of dark energy fit for Queen Nehellenia to inhabit. If they had done so, they could have kept the phages formula in Sailor Stars without it being too egregious as we wouldn't have three seasons of the aforementioned formula in a row. (SuperS also should have included the Amazon Quartet becoming Sailor Scouts.
 
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magic713

Luna Nova
Sep 10, 2012
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The Void
#7
I was hoping Crystal would be that. Make an anime where the overall storyline is following the manga, with fillers so we can get to know the supporting heroes and the villains as well.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#9
People always cite the manga's being written at the same time the anime was airing as the reason the anime had to do "filler" and why its plot diverged at times, but... There was no reason for that to be the case? I don't see why the show had to keep airing nonstop, a new episode every week just about, for five years
Perhaps not but that’s just how Japanese kids anime appears to run back in the day. Week by week nearly non-stop with maybe a couple weeks in between.

I never found Sailor Moon’s filler to be a problem like your average shonen anime
 
May 1, 2015
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Pikari-gaoka
sparklyheartsdiana.tumblr.com
#11
I think that's the biggest weakness of the anime: it's often incredibly lazy and cookie-cutter. The manga didn't do a great job with pacing, exploring all the ideas it raised, and developing its non-Moon Family characters very well, but at least it was always interesting and never by-the-numbers.


I think Season 1 is really strong as is. I'd have liked to have seen more about Silver Millennium, but that's a fairly minor gripe.

Season 2 is more of a mixed bag. It definitely did a better job of fleshing out the villains, but otherwise I wish it had stayed closer to what Naoko came up with. That is to say, they should have included Diana, Chibiusa should have become Sailor Chibi Moon at the end, and Sailor Pluto should have had a much bigger role.

Season 3 is fine... I just don't like how unbalanced the sub-arcs are. (A ton of Kaolinite episodes, a ton of Eudial episodes, a ton of Mimete episodes, now let's rush through the last three/four of the Witches 5) The "finale" (such as it were) is a dud, and being followed by two superfluous episodes only makes it more so.

Season 4 suffers from repeating the formula of S (MOTD targets VOTD to extract Object in hopes of finding Goal) for way too many episodes without the overarching story making much/any progress, and also continues S's trend of largely ignoring the supporting characters established in the first two seasons. I think SuperS should have taken R's approach: instead of targeting random victims each episode to extract their Dream Mirrors in search of Pegasus, the Amazon Trio/Quartet should have used the Lemures to spread nightmare energy around different parts of Tokyo in order to turn the city into an area of dark energy fit for Queen Nehellenia to inhabit. If they had done so, they could have kept the phages formula in Sailor Stars without it being too egregious as we wouldn't have three seasons of the aforementioned formula in a row. (SuperS also should have included the Amazon Quartet becoming Sailor Scouts.
Very well put!
 

Mitsukara

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2017
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D-Point
#12
if the 90's anime followed the plot of the manga but also included filler which didn't affect much of the plot ... would it have been a better alternative for the franchise
I would rather die, good sir!

Okay maybe that's a little melodramatic and hyperbolic of me. I DO think there's too much stalling in the anime, and timewasting episodic moments we could stand to lose. But, by that thinking, it also sounds like we wouldn't get:

- Jadeite being punished by Beryl, instead of immolated by Rei; possibly no Thetis either

- The Naru and Nephrite storyline (as opposed to that gruesome melting scene)

- Maybe the subsequent Naru and Umino storyline (I guess this wouldn't affect the other plot enough so it might still fit; but seriously, this was such a great story and I'd be far less of a fan of the franchise if it didn't exist.)

- The Zoisite / Mamoru rivlarly; possibly not the Zoisite / Kunzite romance (as this muddles the vaguely implied Sen/Shi pairings from that one chapter cover and the later Casablanca Memories);

- The seven great youma in general (this affects the plot of the silver crystal's introduction heavily)

- I'm not sure if they'd have totally new from scratch arcs, so there is a possibility of no Ali / En / Makaiju storyline. Especially since an important reason for that storyline was the memory wipe at the end of season 1, another anime invention. (This approach might even strike the R movie from getting made...)

- The Ayakashi sisters accepting a plea bargain defection / recovering

- Saphir defying Wiseman

- Diamande trying to avenge Saphir

- Kindly, loving Professor Tomoe who is only doing any of this because he has to under durress, who is funny, cute, and a genuinely good dad, the nicest of all possessed bosses in the show, who keeps trying to help his daughter no matter what, and who survives... I mean, it's one of the best stories / most loveable character rewrites in the entire show, and it's completely incompatable with his manga personality.

- We would probably not get stuff like Minako stealing her own pure heart crystal, either, because while that doesn't have a lasting plot impact, it's a bit precocious if you're trying to stick to the manga's tone. Especially sure pure heart crystals might not exist.

- Mimete murdering Eudial and generally being a creepy memorable villain who gets an interesting comeuppance (ironically in Eudial's own device that she stole).

- Ugly baggage though it came with, Hawk's Eye's sacrifice for Fish Eye, and Fish Eye and Tiger's Eye's sacrifice to save Usagi; and the new beginning for them.

- Nehelennia making friends and starting over.

- The animamates being press-ganged heroines rather than jealous minions who stole the powers of other, long-dead heroines;

- Galaxia destroying the animamates personally.

- Lead Crow's "rivlarly" with Alluminum Siren; anger at Tin Nyanko afterwards; lamenting about amusement parks as she looks at her old photo with Siren.

- Tin Nyanko's half-healing recovery/personality whiplash.

- Galaxia's redemption; plans to put the star seeds back, presumably reviving the animamates.

Not to mention, you might also discourage wild new character development concepts, like Rei and Usagi's loving quarrels. The anime versions of the Sailor Senshi have quite a lot of personality compared to the early manga, in season 1, and if they'd been trying not to overstep their bounds we might not've gotten most of that.

There are so many reasons why, even though I do like and appreciate the manga, I vastly prefer the 90s anime. Many reasons. Yes, we could've skipped some stupid stuff like the long-winded Amazon Trio arc and it's unpleasant overtones; and the overall story could've been more succinct and focused; and, timing allowing, maybe they could've worked in the cool bits of Naoko's ideas that didn't make it into the anime, like the clearer backstory explanation for the Shitennou, or Sailor Venus and the sword, or Diana's proper introduciton; but at what cost?! The anime's characterizations are amazing, and most of the times they cut loose with their own ideas, that's when Sailor Moon achieved true greatness in my opinion.

As for Crystal, what I would rather have seen is a hybrid continuity grabbing ideas from the manga and the anime. And I don't just mean the poses, I don't care about stock footage (that's something I could stand to lose in the '90s anime honestly, repetition is dull). I mean, why not glue together both versions of the Shitennou storyline at the seams, and things like that... both versions had some great unique elements, so I'd rather see something that tries to tie that together. (There's some things where you'd have to pick and choose incompatible issues, like Rei's wildly different characterization, but even so.)

So no, I will defend most of the anime's original choices quite fervently. It could be better, certainly, and the manga had it's great points that sadly got left in the dust- I certainly wish Mamoru had talked to the Shitennou's ghosts in the Black Moon Arc for instance- but the anime enriched the story in so, so many ways.

That said, I do respect the opinions of those who feel otherwise, and I can certainly agree that SuperS was deeply flawed and often bad.
 

rgveda99

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 5, 2009
7,684
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Philippines
#13
It's strange that when things took a different turn in SuperS that's the time when Wedding Peach was also released. It's been mentioned before that writers of Sailormoon also worked on Wedding Peach. I feel like the executives of TOEI were being to abrasive in their decisions. I'm looking at the PS1 and Saturn SuperS game and they were terrible compared to the SNES and 3DO game.
 

Clow

Luna Crescens
Jul 29, 2012
3,447
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#14
People always cite the manga's being written at the same time the anime was airing as the reason the anime had to do "filler" and why its plot diverged at times, but... There was no reason for that to be the case? I don't see why the show had to keep airing nonstop, a new episode every week just about, for five years. They should have taken breaks between each season.
No breaks. The show had to be kept fresh to sell merchandise.

That being said, both the manga and the show would have been better if there had been breaks. Naoko would not have wished to "give up" doing the manga and the animators would have had some room to breathe and develop more ideas.

But, as we know, it was all about the $$$.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#15
They should have put together a short, 13 or so episode placeholder anime (maybe even a silly Sailor V show or something based on one of Naoko's other manga) to put in the time slot while Naoko's got a few chapters done, then released the manga and anime in the summer instead of that winter/spring. They rushed into it.
 

JunoDX

Luna Crescens
Nov 8, 2018
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#16
Is it just me or did the fandom really only start appreciating the filler episodes of the 90s anime after SMC showed that the original material is rushed doesn't offer much character developement?
 
Nov 15, 2017
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#17
In my opinion, everything except Black Lady story, is much better in 90's anime. Because we can see more emotions and love, and spirits in 90's anime, while manga is just gloomy and sad. For example, Nehelenia in 90's anime is a lady who is trapped in bad memories, and opens her heart after Sailor Senshi gives her courage and love. But in manga, Nehelenia is just typical villain.
But most of all, Hotaru's dad is huge good change in 90's anime. In 90's anime, Hotaru's dad is the one who gives Hotaru love, while in manga, he has no love.
So 90's anime had more love and spirits than manga, in my opinion
 
Jan 11, 2019
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Isle of Man
#19
Manga and Anime are differents mediums like Books and Films, each has their own idiosyncrasies that won't from page to screen or vise versa. Given printed media is a lot less public than animated media so fillers aren't a big problem, the issue comes when you can't make a coherent story and while the writers on the episodes were talented they brought nothing new to the table other than inconsistencies.
 

Mitsukara

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2017
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D-Point
#20
They say a picture is worth a thousand words (or as Minako would say, a picture in hand is worth two stones in the bush), so instead of another 2000 word post, here's a visual image response and a 300 word post to anyone who might say the anime's changes added nothing worthwhile. Beware of MASSIVE SPOILERS.

(I might edit the post and put this in spoiler tags if requested, but I figure most people reading this thread won't be concerned with that; let me know if you want it spoiler-blocked.)

Episodes 23 and 24 versus Act 5.


Episode 45 versus Act 13.


And some various anime-exclusive moments...


I can respect that some people may prefer the manga, but I don't, and it's because of moments like these.

Minor blemishes and pacing issues aside, I can't praise the anime's villain rewrites enough! It goes into so much depth about how they care about each other, they have distinct conflicting agendas, they grow and change. Usagi an the Inners grow and change more, too, quite frankly. There are some wonderful ideas from the manga that sadly didn't make it in, but other than that, I am incredibly glad the anime took it's own direction with the plot. Moments like in these screenshots are the real reason I care about Sailor Moon so much.

But that's just my opinion.

EDIT: Also, this didn't happen in the manga:
 
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