A Politically Incorrect Look at Kunzite

[Salem Saberhagen]

So I'm finally getting into the Viz dub, and upon rewatching I just noticed something.

Kunzite's first several plans include an evil hair salon, "princessing lessons," and figure skating.

Is he more of a stereotypical camp gay than Zoisite?

*theres the skiing episode in there too. Can't decide whether that fits the trend or not.

 

[doctorwho29]

Those plans were in the original version as well and has nothing to do with being gay. It has everything to do with trying to come up with plans that would attract teenage girls as he was hunting for Sailor Moon.

 

[Soicite]

In real life, gay personalities and interests vary across a wide spectrum, but legitimately include what you are falsely labeling and mocking here. It is not your place or your business to attach labels to anyone or ascribe things to their sexuality. It's perfectly acceptable for a straight male to be interested in or participate in things like hair/nail salons, figure skating, and the like. It doesn't make them gay, nor does it make them worthy of criticism if they are gay.

 

[Salem Saberhagen]

As a gay man I think you two are taking this topic a bit too seriously. ;

 

[SILVER]

In real life, gay personalities and interests vary across a wide spectrum, but legitimately include what you are falsely labeling and mocking here. It is not your place or your business to attach labels to anyone or ascribe things to their sexuality. It's perfectly acceptable for a straight male to be interested in or participate in things like hair/nail salons, figure skating, and the like. It doesn't make them gay, nor does it make them worthy of criticism if they are gay.

If you looked at what he's actually asking about then you'd know that OP isn't mocking gay people, but wondering if the approach to Kunzite as a character was meant to be camp.

 

[Remus Tsukino]

I love how everyone jumped on this without realizing the OP is gay himself, and pretty camp as well.
Anyway, I think it's actually possible, as there is some coded gay aspects throughout the 90's and is pretty prevalent among some Japanese manga (Gravitation comes to mind). This can also be seen in Disney movies, like Lion King (Scar has some coded gay aspects as well).

 

[Neon Genesis]

As another gay Sailor Moon fan, I was bothered by the 90s anime portrayal of Zoisite but I hadn't thought of Kunzite being stereotyped too until this thread pointed it out. Now that I look at it, I can definitely see some stereotyping going on here. If you look at Jaedite's plots, they're stuff like targeting theme parks and romantic cruise ships. Kunzite's plots are more feminine and based on gay stereotypes. You see this with Fisheye's traps in SuperS too where he spends a lot of time going after ballet dancers and fashion designers which are also out-dated gay stereotypes.

 

[flash over]

As a gay man I think you two are taking this topic a bit too seriously. ;

I'm gay, too, and see nothing wrong about the topic. I love when people jump to conclusions and think they can dictate what we find offensive (which all boils down to an individual's opinion and mindset, anyway).

Considering to this day, Japan's overall views of "gay" are still quite backwards, it may or may not have been intentional, but I do think his schemes were moreso about "what traps would lure girls?"

 

[Neon Genesis]

I'm gay, too, and see nothing wrong about the topic. I love when people jump to conclusions and think they can dictate what we find offensive (which all boils down to an individual's opinion and mindset, anyway).

I just want to say it makes me happy to see so many gay Sailor Moon fans in one place!

 

[Remus Tsukino]

As another gay Sailor Moon fan, I was bothered by the 90s anime portrayal of Zoisite but I hadn't thought of Kunzite being stereotyped too until this thread pointed it out. Now that I look at it, I can definitely see some stereotyping going on here. If you look at Jaedite's plots, they're stuff like targeting theme parks and romantic cruise ships. Kunzite's plots are more feminine and based on gay stereotypes. You see this with Fisheye's traps in SuperS too where he spends a lot of time going after ballet dancers and fashion designers which are also out-dated gay stereotypes.

Fisheye I actually find to be gender fluid, so, the "trap" aspect becomes more of one of gender identity of the day.

 

[Mamo Two-Face]

Those plans were in the original version as well and has nothing to do with being gay. It has everything to do with trying to come up with plans that would attract teenage girls as he was hunting for Sailor Moon.

I agree. I never gave much thought to any of these plans other than being meant to attract the girls, and I think that's just what they are.

 

[Salem Saberhagen]

Are you suuuure it's not Kunzite's fantabulous sensibilities?

 

[Soicite]

I'm also a gay sailor moon fan, and I reserve the right to be offended about the non-inclusive way in which some fellow homosexuals speak about sexuality and gender. As if "macho" or "straight acting" gay males were better then the rest of us, as if they were somehow revolutionary. When yes, they are also stereotypical, displaying gender stereotyped behavior. I think it's great that males who do not conform to outdated male gender roles/stereotypes are included in the media, regardless of whether they are gay or not. The rush to label any gay male on tv who isn't straight-acting as a "negative" stereotype is bullshit.

 

[Salem Saberhagen]

For your information Zoisite and Fish-Eye happen to be two of my favorite characters, as well as Kunzite.

Not once did I claim camp traits are negative. If even this much poking fun is deemed offensive, then to Hell with today's sensitivities.

Edit: for the record I don't think the trend was actually any kind of writer intent, I had just flattered myself that making a thread about it could bring some lulz. (Unless Ikuhara was involved in those episodes, in which case it must absolutely have been on purpose. )

 

[Soicite]

My comments were more general and not directed at you personally Salem. I see that isn't what you were saying. But whatever.

 

[Mosaic]

Kunzite's first several plans include an evil hair salon, "princessing lessons," and figure skating.

Is he more of a stereotypical camp gay than Zoisite?

I figured he made those ridiculous plans because they appealed to girls. Wasn't that the whole point?

For the record, pretty much every gay character in the series is somewhat problematic. That goes for anime in general. Gay characters are usually comic reliefs, overly sexual, or super stereotypical. You can say the same thing for Western animation, and popular media all together. Just look at Family Guy, or stuff like Will and Grace. Gay guys are usually somewhat flamboyant, have similar likes, chatty, and of course overly sexual. Look at TV nowadays, any gay character is bound to be the butt of some sort of Grindr-related joke.

 

[Remus Tsukino]

Kunzite's first several plans include an evil hair salon, "princessing lessons," and figure skating.

Is he more of a stereotypical camp gay than Zoisite?

I figured he made those ridiculous plans because they appealed to girls. Wasn't that the whole point?

For the record, pretty much every gay character in the series is somewhat problematic. That goes for anime in general. Gay characters are usually comic reliefs, overly sexual, or super stereotypical. You can say the same thing for Western animation, and popular media all together. Just look at Family Guy, or stuff like Will and Grace. Gay guys are usually somewhat flamboyant, have similar likes, chatty, and of course overly sexual. Look at TV nowadays, any gay character is bound to be the butt of some sort of Grindr-related joke.

The thing about Grindr is that gay dudes make fun of that themselves. As for the overly sexual aspect, judging from my personal experience, there's a lot of truth in television in that regard, but, I honestly don't see that as a bad thing. I think our narrow views on sex present it as a bad thing and that we are horribly biased.
As for everything else, this is falling out of fashion. Of the two shows you pointed out, Family Guy is never a good thing to judge by and Will and Grace came out in the 90's. In today's world, we have characters like The Crystal Gems from Steven Universe and characters like Hulkling, Wiccan, Midnighter, etc that defy stereotypes. Going back further, in the 70's, a comic called ElfQuest had a cast completely made up of bisexuals, and none of them were stereotyped. And, for those in the know, Lexington of Gargoyles is a great gay character.

 

[Neon Genesis]

I'm also a gay sailor moon fan, and I reserve the right to be offended about the non-inclusive way in which some fellow homosexuals speak about sexuality and gender. As if "macho" or "straight acting" gay males were better then the rest of us, as if they were somehow revolutionary. When yes, they are also stereotypical, displaying gender stereotyped behavior. I think it's great that males who do not conform to outdated male gender roles/stereotypes are included in the media, regardless of whether they are gay or not. The rush to label any gay male on tv who isn't straight-acting as a "negative" stereotype is ☹.

My problem with the 90s portrayal of gay men is not that they portray gay men as feminine but they associate feminine gay men with being evil. Almost every gay male character in the 90s anime that exhibits feminine traits is presented as twisted and evil. The closest we get to a positive portrayal is the fashion designer couple but even with them, the show is never explicit about them being gay and so the audience is made to assume they must be because they are fashion designers. And with the fashion designer couple, their only role seems to serve as victims to further the heternormative plot. In any case, it should be pointed out that Japan is about 20 years behind America on LGBT issues and the 90s anime was written by straight cis men who also had stereotypical portrayals of straight female characters.

 

[Salem Saberhagen]

It's true that the flamboyant gay characters were evil, but how is that complicated by the fact that Fish-Eye's redemption arc was directly tied into his falling for Mamoru?

 

[Neon Genesis]

Fisheye still had to die in the end because gay characters weren't allowed to be happy in older fiction. Fiore also had to die a noble death to protect Usagi and Mamoru's relationship at the end of the R movie. This is known as the Bury Your Gays trope http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays