Would Uranus and Neptune be nearly as popular as characters they weren’t a couple?

[Neon Genesis]

90% of characters are straight, so their sexual orientation doesn't make them stand out, unlike the LGBT characters in Sailor Moon lol
Your comparison doesn't make sense.

My point is LGBTQ fans shouldn't have to prove the authenticity of our love for the characters we enjoy and I feel often like LGBTQ characters are held to higher standards of perfection than straight characters in fiction are. LGBTQ Sailor Moon fans don't owe anyone an explanation for why we like the characters that we do and we shouldn't have to justify ourselves to others. Even if someone liked Uranus and Neptune because they're gay, that's their prerogative to do so and no one should be judged for liking a character because it's not for the "right reason."

 

[blondibear_17]

Speak for yourself personally I loved such gay characters like Zoisite and Kunzite, Fisheye, not too crazy about the Starlights it has nothing to do with them being gay or trans only with how I hated they took the screen time from the Outers and quite frankly I found them reductive and their whole thing of posing as males to get their princess really made no sense.

As for me personally I would still like Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune if they weren't a couple I love their more mature, suave demeanors and they really made S the great season it was. That being said I of course love them as a couple though.


Personally I never much cared for the Starlights I always found the Outers more appealing I personally loved how suave, elegant and more adult they were. They were like the Inners mature older sisters.

Also I found the Starlights to be just meh. Seiya was basically a rip off of Mamoru and Haruka and really I found Yaten and Taiki way more obnoxious then Haruka and Michiru. Sailor Star Fighter for instance was wanted to kill that Nun even though she knew Sailor Moon could save her. This is really worse then anything the Outers did because from what we knew in S the only way to prevent the Silence was by sacrificing some people. Now the Outers didn't like this and hated themselves for it but they were willing to do what was necessary to save the world other then just hoping for the best. Where as Sailor Star Fighter knew that Sailor Moon could heal Phages but for some reason she wanted to kill this Nun because she didn't trust Sailor Moon to have the ability even though just one episode back she witnessed Sailor Moon healing a Phage. Not to mention I think their story of posing as men to attract their Princess makes no sense. Because if their true forms are female then wouldn't it make them harder to recognize them posing as males since Princess Kakyuu knows them as females.


Their personalities were pretty much the same in the manga and I would hardly say that they are nicer and more likable really they could be just as abrasive. Sailor Uranus, Sailor Neptune and Sailor Pluto even attacked the Inners when they refused to kill Hotaru to stop her from becoming the Messiah of Silence.


I don't consider Sailor Neptune to be a Mary Sue she has her own faults. Also I don't think the actions of Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune was stupid in the hunt for the Talismans. According to the information known on those episodes the only way to save the world was to sacrifice some people to get the Talismans. Sailor Uranus was bravely willing to sacrifice her life to save the world I really think that is heroic. Probably the most stupid thing done in S was Sailor Moon giving Mistress 9 the Grail. This was the single most idiotic thing done in the series and very nearly resulted in the apocalypse. Honestly I understood how Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune could be angry at her for that. Also they could have Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune as a couple and still focus on what she is running away from.

Eh my opinion with the Starlights though is that it at least makes sense that they wouldn't ally themselves with the main group because they have no loyalities or allegiance to them or earth in general. It's logical to me that they may not care as long as they get what they want. Neptune and Uranus act with blatant disregard to their team mates and civilians despite the fact that they are earthlings that have the same goals and dutys as the inners they are still difficult and crappy to them.

 

[MariaTenebre]

Eh my opinion with the Starlights though is that it at least makes sense that they wouldn't ally themselves with the main group because they have no loyalities or allegiance to them or earth in general. It's logical to me that they may not care as long as they get what they want. Neptune and Uranus act with blatant disregard to their team mates and civilians despite the fact that they are earthlings that have the same goals and dutys as the inners they are still difficult and crappy to them.

Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune had good reasons for not allying with the main group. They figured that the Inners would not be willing to make what was the then necessary sacrifices to get the talismans which they were right as from what was known at the time there was literally no way to get the talismans and stop the Silence without having to sacrifice some people now the Outers didn't like this but they were willing to do this where as the Inners were not. To the Outers the Inners were childish idealists with no plan on stopping the Silence but just winging it and hoping for the best.

 

[Memento]

My point is LGBTQ fans shouldn't have to prove the authenticity of our love for the characters we enjoy and I feel often like LGBTQ characters are held to higher standards of perfection than straight characters in fiction are. LGBTQ Sailor Moon fans don't owe anyone an explanation for why we like the characters that we do and we shouldn't have to justify ourselves to others. Even if someone liked Uranus and Neptune because they're gay, that's their prerogative to do so and no one should be judged for liking a character because it's not for the "right reason."

But...that's not what this thread is about? No one is trying to judge or invalidate the opinion of anyone who likes Uranus and Neptune *just* because they're gay. Merely, this thread is pondering whether or not Uranus and Neptune would still be popular if they were straight since the main thing that people seem to discuss with respect to them is their being a same sex couple.

 

[Neon Genesis]

Why should gay characters have to prove the worthiness of their popularity by the measures of heterosexuality?

 

[onesurvive]

As far as the 90s anime is concerned... I already don't like/care about them. I think their attacks are cool and I love their transformation and intro music, but beyond that...they're too bland and unlikeable in my opinion.

I'm surprised to see a lot of people don't like the outters.

 

[The Blizzard Prince]

I always thought the main appeal of the Outers was how different they are compared to the Inners. They're older, more mature and approach things from a pragmatic standpoint.

 

[Kerochan no Miko]

I'm surprised to see a lot of people don't like the outters.

It used to be cool to like them; maybe the trend has swung the other direction now that they aren't as new and novel.

 

[Masquerade]

Why should gay characters have to prove the worthiness of their popularity by the measures of heterosexuality?

You're missing the point. Completely.

 

[Nadia]

Note to self: Don't write posts when you are about to fall asleep in front of the keyboard.

Anyway, a Mary Sue, according to Wikipedia, "is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

I believe Naoko Takeuchi herself stated something along the lines that Neptune was hard for her to write because she didn't have any flaws and was so far away from Takeuchi's personality (at least how she perceived herself). That sounds as though it fits the definition of a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue isn't just a character all the others love for no reason and is treated as perfect by the other characters with minor "flaws" to only reinforce her special nature. A Mary Sue is a character who is out of place because she is so good. Her only "flaw" is that she goes along with Uranus' heartless plans, even though it seems to me like Neptune is pulling all the strings.

Sailor Moon's Mary Sue-traits don't change the fact that Neptune does have them in spades, and the audience is not intended to look at her as the manipulative seducer I see her as.

 

[Kerochan no Miko]

Sailor Moon's Mary Sue-traits don't change the fact that Neptune does have them in spades, and the audience is not intended to look at her as the manipulative seducer I see her as.

So your headcanon is different from canon. Cool. Enjoy that, but don't present it as fact.

I will also note that "Mary Sue" has connotations associated with it that need to be taken into account when using the term, given that it's usually used to dismiss strong female characters as worthless, even though the character traits displayed by said female character could easily be applied to popular male characters (such as, say, Luke Skywalker or Batman) with no one batting an eye. Just because you personally don't like a character doesn't mean they're a bad character, and an author modeling a character after him/herself doesn't automatically make that character a bad character.

 

[MariaTenebre]

Note to self: Don't write posts when you are about to fall asleep in front of the keyboard.

Anyway, a Mary Sue, according to Wikipedia, "is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment."

I believe Naoko Takeuchi herself stated something along the lines that Neptune was hard for her to write because she didn't have any flaws and was so far away from Takeuchi's personality (at least how she perceived herself). That sounds as though it fits the definition of a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue isn't just a character all the others love for no reason and is treated as perfect by the other characters with minor "flaws" to only reinforce her special nature. A Mary Sue is a character who is out of place because she is so. Her only "flaw" is that she goes along with Uranus' heartless plans, even though it seems to me like Neptune is pulling all the strings.

Sailor Moon's Mary Sue-traits don't change the fact that Neptune does have them in spades, and the audience is not intended to look at her as the manipulative seducer I see her as.

First of all Sailor Uranus's plans were not heartless. Again in Sailor Moon S according to what was known at the time the only way to stop the silence was to sacrifice the owners of the Talismans. Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune didn't want to do this but since it was the only way to stop the Silence they were willing to do what was needed unlike the Inners plans of just winging it and hoping for the best.

Next Sailor Neptune is hardly a manipulative seducer atleast not where Haruka is concerned she even tells Haruka not to take her Lip Rod for fear of it changing her life forever. Sailor Neptune does have somewhat of a femme fatale side to her in trying to seduce people like Seiya for instance for information but she would always be loyal to Haruka. She is basically a heroic femme fatale akin to characters like Jessica Rabbit or Catwoman.

 

[Nadia]

So your headcanon is different from canon. Cool. Enjoy that, but don't present it as fact.

I will also note that "Mary Sue" has connotations associated with it that need to be taken into account when using the term, given that it's usually used to dismiss strong female characters as worthless, even though the character traits displayed by said female character could easily be applied to popular male characters (such as, say, Luke Skywalker or Batman) with no one batting an eye. Just because you personally don't like a character doesn't mean they're a bad character, and an author modeling a character after him/herself doesn't automatically make that character a bad character.

My point was the narrative pushing people seeing the characters as perfect makes Neptune a Mary Sue in my eyes. It may be a fact that she's supposed to be awesome, but that fact works against her; a "Mary Sue" is never meant to be seen as flawed.

I can understand being wary of backdoor misogyny, but Sailor Moon is a show starring and showcasing primarily female characters in protagonist roles. In fact you just insinuated the main character of the show could be considered one. Challenging a supporting female character in a female-laden work is not the same as condemning Wonder Woman or Rey, characters who are the story equivalent of their male counterparts in other tales and are surrounded by male supporting characters. What is that she's preternaturally gifted to an unrealistic degree even by Sailor Moon's standards (she's a genius at violin, has her own helicopter, everyone wants her, etc), she shifts the narrative to her and Uranus due to plot-driven drama.

Plus anyone is welcome to call Batman and Luke Skywalker Gary Stus, but this is neither a Batman nor Star Wars topic. Still, I don't think any character should be "sacred." Look at how many people hate Chibi-Usa and think of her as the Scrappy of the series. People are allowed to hate her and call her a bad character (even though I disagree) but it's accepted. However, it seems like any criticism of or negativity towards Neptune (or Uranus) as a character is considered off-limits.

Sailor Neptune does have somewhat of a femme fatale side to her in trying to seduce people like Seiya for instance for information but she would always be loyal to Haruka. She is basically a heroic femme fatale akin to characters like Jessica Rabbit or Catwoman.

It's been a long time since I saw "Who framed Roger Rabbit?" but IIRC Jessica Rabbit, while a decent toon, isn't exactly a hero.

Catwoman is morally --at best-- an anithero...in most cases is a morally grey villain. A lot of the adaptations do "hero" her up, but she's a member of Batman's rogue's gallery for a reason.

Those really aren't the best comparisons to make.

 

[MariaTenebre]

Michiru is more heroic then say Catwoman but she is an example of a more heroic femme fatale she is definitely not a villain and has good intentions and heroic aims.

 

[Neo King Rose]

yup because there's more to them than a relationship - Haruka is tough strong interesting and cool with a flirty side lol. Sure she can come off as mean cause of how she acts to the inners but give her a break [if we go by S]she just met them and didn't trust them yet on top of keeping her mind on her mission at all times whether she's acting to follow it or run away by racing, remember how chiba's motives were questioned in the beginning before the silver crystal was revealed? Ok she still was like that in stars still she gets too much flac when the starlights particularly yaten is worse. Michiru is gorgeous mysterious elegant sophisticated talented painter and musician she has her flirty moments too difference being that she flirts with either gender, of the two Michiru is my fav - I love how she didn't need a guardian to awaken her as a senshi. In conclusion they are supposed to contrast the inners with a more mature point of view and with their own mission that they themselves are still trying to make sense of, I liked them before I knew they were a couple [but kinda guessed cause even in the cwi you can see how close they are and yeah not even cousins under normal circumstances hold hands like that]

 

[JayD22460]

Wow, lots of opinions on this one!

Ultimately...yes, I think I would be a fan of Uranus and Neptune even if they weren't a couple, but at the same time them being a couple is definitely a draw for me, and there's nothing wrong with that. I hear what Neon Genesis is saying. Sometimes it does feel like gay characters are examined by different standards from straight characters.

I've been into the Outers before I even knew they existed. Watching Sailor Moon back in 1997 or so, I remember drawing my own versions of Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, and Saturn because as far as we knew back then, they didn't exist (I missed the first appearances of Pluto in R; back then we only had the first 60-something episodes). The fact that the show introduced Moon + the Inners and conspicuously ignored the remaining planets made it seem like these other "missing" Sailors were really special.

I discovered Uranus and Neptune (and, consequently, Pluto and Saturn) on the Internet around 1998 or so and immediately fell in love with them. Their portrayal on the show itself seemed to line up with what I was reading online. They were cooler and more mature than the Inners, and yes, them being in love with one another was a highlight. All of the other characters were devoted solely to Sailor Moon, but Uranus and Neptune were also devoted to one another. That was really special.

But there were other things I liked about them, too. I love how Neptune has ocean-based powers. I like that they have their own weapons/talismans, which the Inners don't really have unless you count their "super" attacks. Uranus and Neptune played heavily into the series mythology regarding Saturn and the overall plot of the S/Infinity arc, whereas the Inners didn't really have this luxury (they existed to protect Usagi and occasionally the 90s anime involved some of them in the main plot more than others, but more often than not they're just experiencing the plot). As people, Haruka and Michiru are kind of fascinating. Haruka rejects society's expectations for her which is quite admirable. She's a famous race car driver and she seems just as rich as Michiru, who is also quite artistic and mystically inclined.

I don't think Michiru is a Mary Sue because she has at least one flaw -- she's so devoted to Haruka that sometimes she doesn't make the smartest decisions. In my mind, the narrative painting her as "perfect" isn't enough to qualify her as a Mary Sue -- she needs to actually BE perfect, and she's not.

Beyond that, I like Michiru's mysterious aura and her overall attitude. It's true what others are saying, that there never really was a Sailor Moon character like her before. At least in Haruka's case we got Makoto -- not the same, to be sure, but I feel like there are some similarities there, whereas Michiru doesn't seem like any of the Inners. She's smart like Ami and she's spiritual like Rei but it's just not that simple with her.

So...yeah, TLDR, I like them and I think I'd like them even if they weren't in a relationship/if they were straight, but that's also part of their appeal and there's nothing wrong with that. I think Neon Genesis is reading a bit too much into it, but at the same time, what they're saying is not entirely inaccurate -- sometimes, it feels like these questions are asked of gay characters quite often, and it can be tiring to point out that it's fine to like a character for being gay.

 

[Time Sage]

The issue with UraNep is that they were litterally created as a paired unit by Takeuchi. You cannot split them apart without referencing the other. My go to point on this is the SeraMyu. Did you know they have Zero solo songs over it's entire run? Every single song they have is a duet between them. It's very hard to speculate on this topic because they were literally designed as a couple.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

Yep, while they jerks in the 90's anime, even if they weren't a couple I would still love them regardless. The whole of the Outers + Venus & Mars were always my very faves of the Senshi. I think what I love most about Uranus & Neptune in particular is just how morally grey and nuanced they are as characters. In the 90's anime they also face a similar dilemma that Minako does in desiring more than anything to live out a normal life but are being consumed by their duties and "the mission" and putting that ahead of everything for the greater good, I've always been a sucker for conflicts like that.

Neptune is much of a Mary Sue. She's' calm, elegant, and beautiful and "perfect."

I could see how she could come off as one but for me what saves her from being a Mary-Sue in the 90's anime is that both she & Uranus's ways are proven to be wrong time and time again by Usagi. To me what makes a Mary-Sue is someone who's perfect in all ways, personality/talents wise AND ethics wise - if they're constantly propped up by the narrative and never treated as wrong. Michiru might have the former down but she definitely doesn't qualify for the latter. (Conversely what saves 90's anime Usagi from being a Mary-Sue despite always being proven right by the narrative and being somewhat of a Purity Sue in her beliefs system, are those superficial flaws that she has that Neptune doesn't - such as being clumsy, a crybaby, lazy, not academically bright, etc.)

And in the manga, while it doesn't go as in-depth like the 90's anime on the moral dilemma conflict concerning sacrifices in Infinity, Michiru is much more allowed to let loose and lose her composure there; showing cracks of imperfections in her perfectly crafted graceful & mature personality, which also automatically disqualifies her manga version from being a Mary-Sue as well.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

I would say Usagi is more of a Mary Sue than Neptune. Neptune is elegant, beautiful, talented and rich, but she's also a flawed hero and can come off as extremely selfish.
Meanwhile, Usagi may be clumsy and inelegant in comparison, but she's the literal team leader, princess, goddess, future queen, messiah, pure maiden, mistress of the entire universe who can literally light up the galaxy with how loving she is and will die for her friends. Her costume is an actual rainbow compared to the others and she can even bring back the dead.
I do love Usagi, just saying.

 

[kasumigenx]

I would say Usagi is more of a Mary Sue than Neptune. Neptune is elegant, beautiful, talented and rich, but she's also a flawed hero and can come off as extremely selfish.
Meanwhile, Usagi may be clumsy and inelegant in comparison, but she's the literal team leader, princess, goddess, future queen, messiah, pure maiden, mistress of the entire universe who can literally light up the galaxy with how loving she is and will die for her friends. Her costume is an actual rainbow compared to the others and she can even bring back the dead.
I do love Usagi, just saying.

Usagi is also flawed, she wants a utopia.